Cuffs on Suit Coat Sleeves

[Frog in Suit]

I did not know that consideration was given to sending the fleet to Saint Petersbourg to save the Tsar. I do not suppose the King, by that time, was in any position to decide, one way or another.

Back to the previous issue being discussed, it would then have been the future Edward VII who started the fashion -- no, make that trend or custom -- of turn-ups on trousers. Rather supports my argument, what?

Could someone be kind enough to confirm?

Frog in Suit

[storeynicholas]

George V suggested that the Romanovs be given asylum, the government agreed and then George V changed his mind, fearful of stirring up anti-monarchist feeling. The Romanovs were by then in Ekaterinburg, where they died (well, where the 'nuclear family' died)

I can confirm Edard VII and turn-ups, with this picture - same source as several recently, the book which Marcelo lent me (you will get it back, Marcelo!): Interestingly, his heir and the others are noticeable in not having turn-ups:

[img][img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg55 ... age-16.jpg[/img]

NJS[/img]

[Frog in Suit]

NJS,

Thank you for the picture which so opportunely supports my argument.

I notice with interest the presence of a ticket pocket in the King's coat.
Can an argument be made that ticket pockets are no so informal after all?

Kind regards,

Frog in Suit

[storeynicholas]

NJS,

Thank you for the picture which so opportunely supports my argument.

I notice with interest the presence of a ticket pocket in the King's coat.
Can an argument be made that ticket pockets are no so informal after all?

Kind regards,

Frog in Suit

First of all, notice how much better the King's hat is than all the rest!! Secondly, both Ed VII and Geo V had sideways creases in their trousers. Thirdly, his top coat is clearly a lived-in favourite. Ticket pockets! - Maybe it's just that Little rules bend to great Princes - and Ed VII was certainly that - his favourite dog wore a collar bearing the legend I am Caesar and I belong to Caesar - but I am not sure from whence derives the notion that ticket pockets are informal, as such. Certainly, when I first formulated my DB lounge suit specification, neither sloping pockets nor ticket pockets prompted any clucking of teeth; sucking in of breath or quizzical sideways look!. Indeed, I believe that the ticket pocket was the cutter's suggestion - and the same goes for my second big black top coat. I think that these touches are sportif but I don't know about informal. Anyhow, aren't we into tasteful innovation!!!
NJS

[DFR]

Sadly outmoded.

[marcelo]

NJS, if not for the sake of your pleasure only, then for the interest of our fellow Loungers, I do beg you to keep the aforementioned book as long as you deem it necessary.

Marcelo

[storeynicholas]

NJS, if not for the sake of your pleasure only, then for the interest of our fellow Loungers, I do beg you to keep the aforementioned book as long as you deem it necessary.

Marcelo

Marcelo -
Farid Chenoune's A History of Men's Fashion is a great book; supporting propositions with authoritative images. I don't agree with everything in the book but, who, in this area, could write at such length, over a span reaching from the 18th C to the near present and not invite some controversy? Indeed, I doubt whether such a book would be worth reading. The downside is that illustrated books cost a great deal to produce and, therefore, to buy, however, I thoroughly recommend this book and am most grateful to you for the loan of it. My enthusiasm for it has prompted me to scan and save the images which interest me most and so you will receive it back (a little bit thumbed!) when we meet next month.
best,
NJS

[storeynicholas]

Sadly outmoded.

Yes, the age - La Belle Epoque has gone, as lambent and as evanescent as a fine web covered with morning dew; slit and gone down the wind. I don't suppose that a hat like his even exists anymore...
NJS

[HappyStroller]

I wonder if this was the actual wish of His Majesty or whether this was by command of the then British prime minister as that would have been a political decision.

...<snipped>...
However, one wonders whether Edward VII would not, perhaps, have been more robust and sent the Royal Navy to save the Romanovs; that he vetoed the plan, for me, is the main blip in George V's reign, so far as state affairs go, anyway.
NJS

[pvpatty]

There's little doubt that George V's punctillious observance of comme il faut was partly a reaction to his own father's libertinism. However, one wonders whether Edward VII would not, perhaps, have been more robust and sent the Royal Navy to save the Romanovs; that he vetoed the plan, for me, is the main blip in George V's reign, so far as state affairs go, anyway.
NJS

I am reminded of what Prince Philip said of the Soviets: “The bastards murdered half my family!"

[HappyStroller]

I think the photogrqaph kindly provided by NJS shows King Edward VII and the then future George V wearing their outer frock coats.

I wonder whether the difference between a formal frock coat and an outer frock coat is that only the formal frock coat has an explicit waistline.

BTW, the phtogrqaph seems to show it was His Majesty who turned up his cuffs, while the Pirnce of Wales did not follow suit. And the top hats indicate the turn up was done on the trousers of a formal suit and not a lounge suit!

Furthermore, I thought formal frock coats have no outer pockets!

...<snipped>...
I can confirm Edard VII and turn-ups, with this picture - same source as several recently, the book which Marcelo lent me (you will get it back, Marcelo!): Interestingly, his heir and the others are noticeable in not having turn-ups:

[img][img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg55 ... age-16.jpg[/img]

NJS[/img]

[storeynicholas]

I wonder if this was the actual wish of His Majesty or whether this was by command of the then British prime minister as that would have been a political decision.

...<snipped>...
However, one wonders whether Edward VII would not, perhaps, have been more robust and sent the Royal Navy to save the Romanovs; that he vetoed the plan, for me, is the main blip in George V's reign, so far as state affairs go, anyway.
NJS

Even in Parliamentary democracies Prime Ministers do not command Kings. As I said, above, Geo V,with the agreement of the government, offered asylum and then changed his mind.
NJS

[Frog in Suit]

BTW, the phtogrqaph seems to show it was His Majesty who turned up his cuffs, while the Pirnce of Wales did not follow suit. And the top hats indicate the turn up was done on the trousers of a formal suit and not a lounge suit!

An irrelevant question if I may: Was the future George V ever styled Prince of Wales? Albert, Duke of Clarence, was the first born (thank you, Wikipedia) , wasn't he? therefore being the only one in that generation who could have been Prince of Wales?

As you may notice, i love nitpicking...

Frog in Suit

[storeynicholas]

BTW, the phtogrqaph seems to show it was His Majesty who turned up his cuffs, while the Pirnce of Wales did not follow suit. And the top hats indicate the turn up was done on the trousers of a formal suit and not a lounge suit!

An irrelevant question if I may: Was the future George V ever styled Prince of Wales? Albert, Duke of Clarence, was the first born (thank you, Wikipedia) , wasn't he? therefore being the only one in that generation who could have been Prince of Wales?

As you may notice, i love nitpicking...

Frog in Suit

Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondale was Prince Albert Victor of Wales - as Princess Charlotte who predeceased her grandfather George III was Princess Charlotte of Wales. The Regent was Prince of Wales for all of Charlotte's life and so was Ed VII for all of Albert Victor's life. The title Prince of Wales has to be conferred (when the Duke of Windsor had been created PoW they restarted a ceremony at Carnarvon Castle). However, the eldest child of a reigning sovereign is born Duke of Cornwall. Prince George was created Prince of Wales in 1901, having already married his brother's intended!
NJS

[Frog in Suit]

NJS

Thank you for this explanation.

Frog in Suit