my trip to NYC

[masterfred]

Good God, Cheo has certainly kicked his prices up in the last few years. He was just over $2,000 for a two-piece when last I saw him (several years ago - and he was still on a street-level shop on 60th). Hmmmmmmmmm.....

[Mark Seitelman]

A word in defense of Jay Kos.

Jay and staff have always been friendly to me even though I have never been a big customer. Jay graciously hosted Bruce Boyer's book signing.

He's in a tough business, and his neck is on the line everyday. Therefore, he is under tremendous pressure to make sales rather than discuss clothes or debate the merits of his selections. In view of his Park Avenue rent, he cannot be laid back.

Yes, he's expensive. But, with the exception of Daffy's around the corner, there are no bargains in this part of town.

[Guest]

Kos needs no defense from me Mark. I am sympathetic and I know that his prices are comparable to the other top stores in the city. I did not think him a bad fellow: just intense, and I cannot deal with that when I am spending my own money.

[manton]

I could be wrong about Cheo. Perhaps his price is less than $4,000, more like $3,500 or $3,800. But it's nowhere near $2,000.

[Guest]

Nice if we could make a CMT list for all these top tailors. It would be a nice Lounge resource.

[manton]

They won't all do CMT. Or some will, but only for established clients. Others will, but charge so much that there is really no benefit.

[Guest]

I am not trying to find out their discount price or even save money with CMT. For me, CMT is a way to get a garment with an otherwise unobtainable fabric. Centofanti does not charge an exceptional price for fabric, I do not think I saved any money when I made my jackets with the 346 tweed or the Cloth Club flannel. And his collection of fabric is second to none. If a tailor is charging a mark-up on the fabric, then that is what he wants as part of his price, which is fine for me. But CMT allows us to standardize it.

[manton]

Wow, that makes Ragusa a relative bargain. Who is he? I have never heard of him.

Anthony Ragusa is a tailor in 510. Frank rents space from him. Though of course everyone will have to be out of 510 by year's end, and Frank speculates that Ragusa will just hang up his shears at that point. He does not have many clients any more, if he ever did. He makes coats himself, though he buys pre-made canvases and machine-made collars. His wife makes the buttonholes. The trousers are outsourced.

The clothing is competent and correct, but not exceptional, from what I have seen. I have only seen his stuff on clients a handful of times. Mostly I see it on dummies. The shoulder, sleevehead, lapel shape, etc. -- things that denote style -- don't strike me as terribly inspired. Not bad, just (as one friend put it) "no poetry".

[Mark Seitelman]

I believe that Oxxford does "bespoke" only through Louis Boston. At one time it did "bespoke" through Bergdorf, but it was discontinued. I cannot comment on the "bespoke" process at Louis Boston.

Oxxford makes MTM at its store and various retail outlets, such as Barneys, Wilkes Bashford, etc. I understand that an individual pattern is made. Years ago its MTM was more of a cut and paste and mix and match of existing patterns.

Its MTM is excellent. I have had bespoke and other MTM's, and my personal opinion is that it is the best on the quality and value scales.

If one's discussion of quality is limited to tradtional bespoke as practiced by at 510 Madison Avenue, then Oxxford cannot be included. However, if one's discussion is open to overall quality, Oxxford and a select number of other factory made suits should be considered.

BTW, is the end of 510 Madison official? That's too bad. For those tailors who may not wish to "hang-up their shears", iIt may be useful for a group of tailors to rent jointly a premises as a cost saving measure so as to stay in midtown. Many of the Savile Row tailors share premises. I may be able to help.

[Concordia]

The Oxxford "Bespoke" program at Louis is not worth the price of admission. It's essentially MTM, with a faint stab at an extra fitting. It's an excellent model for the jacket, but I'm not sure it is really exclusive to Louis. You might be able to get the same effect from the NY store. Also, I don't much like the way the Louis tailor fits and measures things-- had to take trousers afterwards to Rizzo's to get it done right. And I'm still not sure what went wrong with the jacket. Could be that the sleeves started too long, or maybe I lost a crucial 5 pounds. Anyway, you can get excellent real bespoke for less, even if you have to work in a flight to London.

[SouthPender]

I was particularly interested in the earlier posts in this thread about Cleverley RTW. I have been seriously considering a couple of their models (at 300 GBP), but have held back because: (a) I've learned they're made by C&J (not that there's anything wrong with C&J Handgrades, but if the Cleverley's are equivalent to them, I can get the C&Js at considerably lower prices) and (b) they don't seem to be available in any width fitting other than the UK E. However, I suppose that even if made by C&J, they could actually be better shoes than the C&J Handgrades, couldn't they. With this kind of arrangement, I assume that Cleverley set out their requirements to C&J, and the latter produce the shoes up to these standards. Under these conditions, the Cleverley RTW could, couldn't they, be close in quality to EG--and much cheaper? The width fitting is a much greater problem for me. Has anyone been able to get Cleverley RTW shoes in a narrower fitting than E?

[bry2000]

As part of Oxxford's MTM program at the NY store, they offer an extra fitting for perhaps $300 (I forget the exact price). That might be analagous to what they call "bespoke" at Louis Boston. The salespeople at the Oxxford store in NY are not afraid to take your money (that's right, Tashae), but, interestingly, they warn that the extra fitting was not worth the money. I think Oxxford MTM can work well for those people who fit well into the RTW Oxxford models.

[bry2000]

I was particularly interested in the earlier posts in this thread about Cleverley RTW. I have been seriously considering a couple of their models (at 300 GBP), but have held back because: (a) I've learned they're made by C&J (not that there's anything wrong with C&J Handgrades, but if the Cleverley's are equivalent to them, I can get the C&Js at considerably lower prices) and (b) they don't seem to be available in any width fitting other than the UK E. However, I suppose that even if made by C&J, they could actually be better shoes than the C&J Handgrades, couldn't they. With this kind of arrangement, I assume that Cleverley set out their requirements to C&J, and the latter produce the shoes up to these standards. Under these conditions, the Cleverley RTW could, couldn't they, be close in quality to EG--and much cheaper? The width fitting is a much greater problem for me. Has anyone been able to get Cleverley RTW shoes in a narrower fitting than E?

Again, not all Cleverly RTW are C&J. They are nice shoes, and if they fit properly, they are worth the money.

[manton]

The end of 510 is indeed nigh. Maurizio has already left. Raphael will soon sign a new lease. Nicolosi has already signed. Maurizio and Nicolosi are moving into the same builiding, right accross the street, at the SE corner of 53rd and Madison. (I'm not sure of the address, or if it has a Madison Avenue address or a 53rd street address.) Raphael says he has not decided yet where to go, but may well go there too. Frank says that he will move upstate, and come into the city periodically for fittings.

I don't know about Corvato, Ragusa or John Tudor.

[Concordia]

I Has anyone been able to get Cleverley RTW shoes in a narrower fitting than E?

George Glasgow categorically refused to show me any RTW shoes because, he said, they only offered one width. I have the opposite problem-- wide feet-- but I think you'll be better served by going direct to C&J and trying to get a narrow fitting. Or EG MTM, which will definitely have whatever width you like.