Adjusting jacket opening below front buttons

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

hectorm
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Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:07 pm

dempsy444 wrote:I get tired of hearing those who like to defend the Row and put the onus on the customer for "not doing his research" or "being naive."
It takes two to tango. Nobody is going to discount SR responsibility when they promised one thing and deliver another, but IMO an educated customer (having done his homework and with an aware approach) still is the best antidote for avoiding all those situations.
If you think that because you are paying (a lot) you are going to get what you want, that´s naive. It´s not because of tailors’ dishonesty. It´s the nature of the product you´re trading in.
dempsy444 wrote: Bespoke is meant to be about the customer and when tailors make it about themselves or their history or their house cut, they undermine their own profession.
Bespoke means different things to different people. Not a few costumers are looking for the house brand, the stags in the front shop, or hanging their patterns next to Churchill´s or the PoW´s. SR tailors are among the few in the world left with the talent to cut original patterns. If they make it about their house style and that´s contrary to the customer´s wishes then the customer has chosen the wrong house for him. The customer is always right doesn´t apply in this case (once again I´m talking about house style and not shoddy work or promises not honored).
dempsy444
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Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:26 pm

hectorm wrote:
dempsy444 wrote:I get tired of hearing those who like to defend the Row and put the onus on the customer for "not doing his research" or "being naive."
It takes two to tango. Nobody is going to discount SR responsibility when they promised one thing and deliver another, but IMO an educated customer (having done his homework and with an aware approach) still is the best antidote for avoiding all those situations.
If you think that because you are paying (a lot) you are going to get what you want, that´s naive. It´s not because of tailors’ dishonesty. It´s the nature of the product you´re trading in.
dempsy444 wrote: Bespoke is meant to be about the customer and when tailors make it about themselves or their history or their house cut, they undermine their own profession.
Bespoke means different things to different people. Not a few costumers are looking for the house brand, the stags in the front shop, or hanging their patterns next to Churchill´s or the PoW´s. SR tailors are among the few in the world left with the talent to cut original patterns. If they make it about their house style and that´s contrary to the customer´s wishes then the customer has chosen the wrong house for him. The customer is always right doesn´t apply in this case (once again I´m talking about house style and not shoddy work or promises not honored).
If it is a case of the customer asking for one thing and not knowing what he is asking for, and then expressing disappointment with his tailor upon the outcome, I agree with you. In this sense a customer needs to know the difference between what he likes and what he thinks he likes and get that all sorted out so he is a better partner in the process. I agree. But if it is a case of the tailor shorting the customer or not giving him the full bespoke promise because he believes he can get away with it or because it suits his commercial needs, then I think the blame falls squarely on the tailor and the profession. In many ways this discussion reminds of the situation in the investment brokerage industry. When a client seeks the financial advice of an investment professional he is very much part of the process and bears responsibility in the relationship but the burden is still on the professional. Yes, customers must be careful to pick a good advisor, as the industry is riddled with risks and risky relationships, but the professional has a "fiduciary duty" to make a suitable recommendation which involves a total view of the clients financial situation/plan. To achieve this a series of steps are required like gauging the customer's age, risk profile, assets, etc. Just because one has done this a thousand times before for other clients doesn't mean he stops the process for a new client. In this sense, a Savile Row house shorting a client a fitting because it is easier for them and they can get away with it, is tantamount to a financial advisor stopping short of his process and then selling his ignorant client a variable-annuity when it is unneeded or inappropriate. This is something that should upset those who love bespoke and want to see it thrive because it threatens its very existence long-term. In the long-run, M2M will continue to improve and the fashion brands behind them will have significantly more money behind them to invest in the client experience. In the end, the only advantage bespoke tailors will have, even those on the Row, will be the deep personalization and sincerity of the product and experience. Compromise that, compromise your future.
C.Lee
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Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:03 am

dempsy444 wrote:...But if it is a case of the tailor shorting the customer or not giving him the full bespoke promise because he believes he can get away with it or because it suits his commercial needs, then I think the blame falls squarely on the tailor and the profession...
No one likes to feel duped, short-changed or taken advantage of. The customer, instead of simply assigning blame, should seek to achieve resolution. I like what Micheal referred to as getting livid. All these mild-mannered bespeakers should be turning green a la Incredible Hulk. It's one thing to confer with the community, it's another to engage with the issue at hand. The two together bring results.
dempsy444 wrote:...In the end, the only advantage bespoke tailors will have, even those on the Row, will be the deep personalization and sincerity of the product and experience. Compromise that, compromise your future.
This made me question why I dealt with the people that I did through my life. It was because of them and what they offered as people. They were the product and experience.

My current tailor is all meat and potatoes. No bells and whistles here. I like it this way. He is sincere - I trust the man, and in turn trust the product.

Regards.
alden
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Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:29 am

This made me question why I dealt with the people that I did through my life. It was because of them and what they offered as people. They were the product and experience.
+1

C Lee, I suppose we have been either fortunate, lucky or followed good instincts. These kinds of relationships, that can last for decades, are very special. They are to be found today.

Focus on the man. Does he seem as committed as you are to making you look good? Does he beam with pride when you put on the clothes he has made? Or conversely, do you feel like just another number, another fitting, another bit of work? Follow your intuition.

Cheers
alden
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Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:34 am

In the end, the only advantage bespoke tailors will have, even those on the Row, will be the deep personalization and sincerity of the product and experience. Compromise that, compromise your future.
Very true. With all the sales going on these days, it may be that houses are working the bottom line very hard to increase potential multiples in a sale. Whatever the case may be, unsavory practices can ruin reputations and diminish good will.
Julian
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Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:26 am

C.Lee wrote:No one likes to feel duped, short-changed or taken advantage of. The customer, instead of simply assigning blame, should seek to achieve resolution. I like what Micheal referred to as getting livid. All these mild-mannered bespeakers should be turning green a la Incredible Hulk. It's one thing to confer with the community, it's another to engage with the issue at hand. The two together bring results.
Don't worry, I intend to take my issue further. My silence has been due to illness. The last thing that I wanted to do was schedule a meeting with the MD when I was feeling under the weather. I have now recovered.

I have also been taking the time to seek some legal advice (admittedly free at this stage), not because I intend to adopt the persona of a faux lawyer in the meeting, but because I wanted to have some idea of the wider picture for my own reference.

There is some debate as to whether the commissioning of a bespoke garment would be considered as the sale of goods (covered by the Sale Of Goods Act 1979) or as goods and services (covered by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982). Goods and services seems to be the more likely choice with the goods being the materials used and the services being the fitting and making. It doesn't actually affect the situation since both of these Acts have similar clauses and are implied terms in any contract of sale, or supply of goods and services , and I have a contract for sale so these Acts form part of that contract.

Both acts cover the case where the goods are transferred by description and contain clauses such as "goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances.".

The website of the particular tailor in question contains a description of the bespoke process that clearly describes a first fitting, a second fitting, and only after the second fitting is going to finishing mentioned. I am advised that this description, together with reasonable expectations of standard practices at this price point, should be sufficient to demonstrate a failure to match the description.

There is also a clause in the goods and services act: "13) Implied term about care and skill - In a contract for the supply of a service where the supplier is acting in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the supplier will carry out the service with reasonable care and skill."

I don't intend to go in there acting like an amateur lawyer, there is a reason why real lawyers spend so long in study and training. Laypeople who think they have become instant experts on some specific area of the law and attempt to use a miniscule amount of knowledge to intimidate usually look rather pathetic and absurd to me. I did however want to have some idea in my own mind of the legal situation in case an amicable discussion fails to achieve the desired outcome and I might need to resort to briefing a solicitor. Having such knowledge can also subtly affect one's attitude and body language in a negotiation which can help achieve a positive outcome without needing to resort to threats.

Regardless of the outcome I can do without this annoyance and I can't ever see myself placing another commission with this particular tailor however good the end result turns out to be. Once I do find my preferred tailor (there's probably no such thing as ideal) I intend to place at least a couple of commissions a year for the next 5 or 10 years so this short-changing, if deliberate, certainly seems to have been self-defeating in this case.

- Julian
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