Savile Row Overhead and Prices

[dempsy444]

If we look at SR as a play, all SR firm have a different role with different entitlements and lines. These roles attract different clients and connect to different prices ... Poole is the king but old and weak. Huntman is the injured younger brother who has built an empire of his own. A&S is a cousin to Poole and Huntsman. A&S is a good businessman but A&S cannot become king because the blue blood is too thin. Richard Anderson, on the hand, son of Huntsman has a chance to become king one day, because Poole is childless. G&H, the third brother, has fled the family partying downtown. Kilgour, son of G&H, has become a Buddhist ... Newcomers like Kathryn Sargent and A&S alumnis are sort of illegitimate children of the royal family ...

Ha! This brilliance deserved a response much sooner!

[dempsy444]

I agree totally that Savile row has a history of excellence and quality and I'm sure it is still maintained. But it is inevitable that as an organisation gets bigger and loses the personal touch, things will not be as they were in the past. The best work I have seen from the row is from small, more personal shops. Who has been shown around and told that after an arm has been carefully hand fitted to a shoulder and re-done until perfect, it is then secured by machine? If a carpenter told me that all his holes are bored with a brace & bit, I would wonder why he doesn't use a power drill for certain tasks, especially if they were all over his bench. I'm all for Savile Row and what it represents. My posts are not meant to be critical of the row...just of the blind acceptance of diminishing standards which tends to make them a self fulfilled prophesy.

Regarding the comparison to smaller independent tailors, i would make two contrasting points: One of the fondest sartorial experiences I've had was being fitted at Huntsman with the paper patterns of Clark Gable and Rex Harrison hanging beside my suit. I remember drinking tea and having a fun conversation with the staff. There is value in this and it absolutely deserves a premium. I don't know how much that premium is but it's something.
However, at the end of the day the quality of your suit and the enduringness of the bespoke relationship comes down to the individual you are working with; the location of its shop or it's elite name has little value. It's more about the quality of the work that individual does for you and one is eventually better served seeking that individual out than he is getting hung up on a brand. To me it's like the money management business - an average money manager at Goldman Sachs is worth less then a really good one at AG Edwards but there will always be a steady stream of clients who want to have their money managed first at Goldman. That's not to say Golman doesn't have excellent managers, they do. But it's the manager you get not the firm that matters.

I just had a suit completed by a well known and widely lauded tailor on Oak st in Chicago (Despos). Now Oak st may not be Savile Row but after going through the process with this tailor and seeing how he works and seeing the result, I have a hard time believing anyone on Savile Row could exceed his quality no matter their brand, history or client list. It's ultimately about the person and his work not the street.

[andreyb]

However, at the end of the day the quality of your suit and the enduringness of the bespoke relationship comes down to the individual you are working with; the location of its shop or it's elite name has little value. It's more about the quality of the work that individual does for you and one is eventually better served seeking that individual out than he is getting hung up on a brand. To me it's like the money management business - an average money manager at Goldman Sachs is worth less then a really good one at AG Edwards but there will always be a steady stream of clients who want to have their money managed first at Goldman. That's not to say Golman doesn't have excellent managers, they do. But it's the manager you get not the firm that matters.

Let us not forget on actual tailors. Granted, cutter's work is very, very important; but without tailors all he or she can produce is just several funny shaped pieces of flat cloth.

If we include tailors into equation, name of the house does matter. Even my minuscule (just two tailors; one on-Row, one off-Row) personal experience confirms this.

Andrey

[Rowly]

I have a hard time believing anyone on Savile Row could exceed his quality no matter their brand, history or client list. It's ultimately about the person and his work not the street.

That is it exactly. Porsche have the pick of the best Engineers who all want to work at a prestige firm. This, no doubt, applies to Savile Row, so there is an argument that they have the best Cutters and Tailors at their disposal. On the other hand, there are up and coming young Cutters, who need someone to practice on to hone their skills and I would not want to be that someone. The client base of SR has changed over the years and many of the houses are quick to discern whether a new client is really interested in bespoke clothing, or merely a status trophy gatherer. They will allocate their resources accordingly. No matter how high the quality of tailoring, the Cutter will not send it back and back until it is flawless, if he thinks the client would neither know the difference, nor care.
The Cutter is your artist and quality assurance expert who should act in your best interests to achieve excellence. To find this level of service should be easy on SR and worth paying a premium for, but it is the personality, skill set, attention to detail and commitment of the particular person you are dealing with that makes it special. A photograph of a famous person wearing a beautiful suit made by someone who is long gone has absolutely no bearing on the here and now, anymore than the label on the suit bag you carry your finished garment away in is a guarantee of the quality of what's inside.

[Tailor Dan]

I have a hard time believing anyone on Savile Row could exceed his quality no matter their brand, history or client list. It's ultimately about the person and his work not the street.

That is it exactly. Porsche have the pick of the best Engineers who all want to work at a prestige firm. This, no doubt, applies to Savile Row, so there is an argument that they have the best Cutters and Tailors at their disposal. On the other hand, there are up and coming young Cutters, who need someone to practice on to hone their skills and I would not want to be that someone. The client base of SR has changed over the years and many of the houses are quick to discern whether a new client is really interested in bespoke clothing, or merely a status trophy gatherer. They will allocate their resources accordingly. No matter how high the quality of tailoring, the Cutter will not send it back and back until it is flawless, if he thinks the client would neither know the difference, nor care.
The Cutter is your artist and quality assurance expert who should act in your best interests to achieve excellence. To find this level of service should be easy on SR and worth paying a premium for, but it is the personality, skill set, attention to detail and commitment of the particular person you are dealing with that makes it special. A photograph of a famous person wearing a beautiful suit made by someone who is long gone has absolutely no bearing on the here and now, anymore than the label on the suit bag you carry your finished garment away in is a guarantee of the quality of what's inside.

Hear, hear. Very good points.

SR has had to adapt to many different changes throughout its history. Overhead, marketing, etc, has all played there parts in dividing price for bespoke work. But the true test is experience. And not of SR. Those who commission must tell the tale of their what justifies the cost.

Those who have paid for Huntsman £4000, say whether you felt you got the end result you wished for. If you pay under that at most other places and don't get the service required then the price seems to justify itself.

So let's talk personal experience as this may supply some answers as to value, which I think was the point of the OP, as those only working on SR will know the true reasons to why the cost difference.

[Frog in Suit]

But the true test is experience. And not of SR. Those who commission must tell the tale of their what justifies the cost.

Those who have paid for Huntsman £4000, say whether you felt you got the end result you wished for. If you pay under that at most other places and don't get the service required then the price seems to justify itself.

So let's talk personal experience as this may supply some answers as to value, which I think was the point of the OP, as those only working on SR will know the true reasons to why the cost difference.

I am reviving this thread. What follows is my reasoning when choosing a tailor, in no particular order.
I have never used any of the most famous houses (Poole, Huntsman, A & S, you will know who they are…). I would rather not pay for a name and an impression, real or assumed, of exclusivity, nor for internet fame.
My tastes incline more towards an “English” traditional look which means a tailor with a substantial (U.K.) domestic customer base.
A proprietor/cutter should care more about the quality of the product and service as he will suffer from customers moving to a competitor. An employee-cutter in a large firm may leave and a new one need time to get up to speed.
Too small a firm may not last long if the single proprietor/cutter retires. Having an in-house work force should mean better quality control, even if some of the work is occasionally farmed out, which seems to happen at all houses.
I think (I may be wrong) that a firm which falls within the traditional realm of Savile Row (say a W1 postal code, plus some history) will offer at least minimal standards.
I also think it worthwhile to stick to one firm, and letting them know when you place your first order that you intend to do so.
This is pretty much what I did when I last changed tailors (in 2007) in favour of Jones Chalk & Dawson / Meyer & Mortimer. I think I have received good value from them over the years and plan to continue using them.
Frog in Suit

[Rowly]

A good logical approach. Also, given their location, they might well use the same outworkers as the presiige houses with work done to the same standard.

[Frog in Suit]

A good logical approach. Also, given their location, they might well use the same outworkers as the presiige houses with work done to the same standard.

I am sure they all use pretty much the same pool of outworkers, especially for more "exotic" garments, when their in-house staff cannot cope with the work. It is not as if there were too many trained and capable coatmakers, waiscoat makers, trouser makers, button hole workers etc...around, not even mentioning uniform, morning suit, evening suit or smoking jacket specialists.
Frog in Suit

[st.tully]

I just noticed that Huntsman is running a promotion on house fabrics: 3699 for a suit and 2350 for a jacket.

[hectorm]

Huntsman is running a promotion on house fabrics: 3699 for a suit

I can´t help but smiling.

[st.tully]

Huntsman is running a promotion on house fabrics: 3699 for a suit

I can´t help but smiling.

Indeed

[jlazarow]

Are those prices for real? Where did you see/hear that?

[davidhuh]

Gentlemen,

I have followed this discussion for a while now, and I have to admit I don't really understand it or get wise out of it.

I am currently working with two tailors, none of them is rich. They are working with coat and trouser makers, men who make their living in a craft widely disrespected by society. And we who would like to be seen as bespoke aficionados discuss SR overheads and prices?

There is certainly a difference between a tailoring house which is a family business for fifty or even more years, and a name of tradition controlled by financiers. Please do not call these people greedy. Some of them have saved Huntsman (and likely others). If they would be greedy and get the figures right, they would invest elsewhere, but rather not in the bespoke tailoring business...

Very entertaining and full of insight is Richard Anderson's book Bespoke.

cheers, david

[andreyb]

There is certainly a difference between a tailoring house which is a family business for fifty or even more years, and a name of tradition controlled by financiers. Please do not call these people greedy. Some of them have saved Huntsman (and likely others). If they would be greedy and get the figures right, they would invest elsewhere, but rather not in the bespoke tailoring business...

I don't remember anyone called someone else "greedy" in this thread.

Andrey

[Rowly]

I think we are trying to filter out the real deal from

a name of tradition controlled by financiers.

, which has a direct influence on overhead and prices.