The Myth of the Soft Shoulder

[ay329]

MTM: The shoulders are not to my liking and structured shoulders would have looked nicer for your build/frame

MTM, I feel your picture is an example of why the soft shoulder look is not right for a lot of men

Uppercase, what type of frame is more appropriate for the soft shoulder look?

[Greger]

There are so many ways to do these and a lack of tailors to do the many variations (so many died). And everybody has their likes and dislikes from customers to tailors. Is there any wrong? I do think a business suit is a uniform, or you could say, work clothes. So, the suit should match the purpose of the work. High professional lacks a rumpled look. More cauasul work could be different in many ways. After work clothes belong in a whole nother ball park. Level shoulders doesn't mean anything, because people have different slopes not by their choice. Straight and curved is a different matter, and curved I've seen both ways. Width of shoulders depends. How big is the head? How small is the head? These all vary to the different sleeve caps and techniques of making. As far as the sleeve cap goes that can be round, drop or roped in a number of ways. Did I miss any? The shape of the person- stooped, erect, sunken chest, chest juts out, forward shoulder, sway back. A forward shoulder can be cut straight or crooked. So now were into making up which changes looks. How ever the tailor does it and your satisfied, what more can you ask for? Some of your friends may think the tailor did a poor job, but maybe their tailor does a poor job instead. And then there are different preference, so neither is right nor wrong. Among all of this for each and every one there can be excellent quality to poor. Back 50 or 40 years ago, if you were interested, you could see lots and compare lots and ask the many tailors. Today with 99% of the tailors gone there is a lot of knowledge missing. So most the arguments pro and con are also gone. On the internet there have become famous tailors, because some of their customers write and tell about them. But scattered about are untold gems that are equal to the big names, their customers simply are not present on the internet tell us about them. Some writers on the internet are very good at writing and are very persuasive towards their preferences. How many people are buying what somebody else gets excited about? What I like or dislike shouldn't influence anybody esle, they, you should be buying what pleases your heart. A small town tailor maybe there because he likes the small town instead of a big city. If he were in a big city he might be famous and his presence splashed upon the internet. His "Style" could be way different and in a big city famous, so his style and unknown would be good. We learn from others and then need to do our own thinking.

[Greger]

Uppercase, what type of frame is more appropriate for the soft shoulder look?

This has more to do with the skill of the tailor and not the frame of the customer. One tailor might do it (soft shoulder) one way and it looks great, and another do it another way and it doesn't look good. Plus what the tailor does somewhere else on the garment to harmonize the whole. The persons charactor also lends to what looks good, or how it could look good. This is what I like about tailoring- it is an art. Some tailors are very good at making all of these adjustments and when a customer comes along, internet learned, thinking he is better.... And then there are tailors who are lousy and customer internet learned is better. Always give the tailor a chance, because you can be a big looser. Some people (tailor/customers) have all the right words but don't know how to use them. So their words are great, but their example is terrible. Usually the reason why a client goes to a skilled is because the client isn't the expert and the skilled is more so.

[Bethlehemtown]

The world appears to be divided between structured shoulder aficionados and soft shouldered ones. Compared with that, the divisions between believers and infidels, male and female, and conservatives and radicals seem rather superficial. But do we not have here a perfect example of the tail wagging the dog? To say that a man looks "better" with soft or structured shoulders avers an aesthetic judgment based on requirements of fit and possibly correcting imperfections. But, in my experience, these decisions are not made along these lines of personal physical traits, but on personal ideas about propriety and taste. The concept of "fit", I would argue, is nonsensical, and stylistic details are simply a matter of taste and the times.

[jefferyd]

I am going to disagree with the approval of OD/OT's choice of shoulder as I think that he generally looks bottom-heavy and pear-shaped and a bit more shoulder might might balance the look a little better. Not to say that this wouldn't look acceptable on someone else with different proportions. Sorry.

[Merc]

i agree with jeffrey...this person would do better with a bit more constructed shoulder

[MTM]

Interesting. Thanks for your feedback, ay329. I wonder if jefferyd would agree. Fwiw though, I like the look of OD/OT's shoulders. Could you guys post pics of shoulders you prefer? Maybe you or mafoofan could "foof" our shoulders.

[shredder]

I am going to disagree with the approval of OD/OT's choice of shoulder as I think that he generally looks bottom-heavy and pear-shaped and a bit more shoulder might might balance the look a little better. Not to say that this wouldn't look acceptable on someone else with different proportions. Sorry.

Whilst I agree with you about the impression of a pear-shaped form, I hesitate forming an opinion until I see his head included in the picture. There is a hint that OD/OT has an angular, sculpted face. I find that those who actually look good in a soft coat tend to have a longer and more angular face, and as such, I am open to the possibility that the potential 'improvements' for OD/OT may lie not in the shoulders but elsewhere. Those with a tubby face do not do themselves any favour by wearing a soft coat, especially if the waist is not particularly shaped / nipped: they just look like Doughboy in pyjamas. But then, as Bethlehemtown said, there is no accounting for taste.

[jefferyd]

Interesting. Thanks for your feedback, ay329. I wonder if jefferyd would agree. Fwiw though, I like the look of OD/OT's shoulders. Could you guys post pics of shoulders you prefer?

We shouldn't take the shoulder out of the context of the greater picture- there is nothing particularly wrong with that shoulder on its own, but I don't think it does this particular wearer any favors because of his build and/or posture. No, let me take that back, now that I look at it again. It looks like it is sitting on his shoulder points, rather than being pitched forward and it is a miserably small sleeve at the cap. Two of the great sicknesses of RTW (before anyone who doesn't know me accuses me of being an elitist snob, know that I work in the RTW business) . Working that shoulder forward and a more generous sleeve cap would make a huge difference in the appearance and comfort of that suit. As it is, I wouldn't like it on anybody.

Your jacket, on the other hand, if paired with an odd trouser, would look fine, IMO. I don't love it as a suit. (Am I being crotchety this morning?)

Whilst I agree with you about the impression of a pear-shaped form, I hesitate forming an opinion until I see his head included in the picture. There is a hint that OD/OT has an angular, sculpted face. I find that those who actually look good in a soft coat tend to have a longer and more angular face, and as such, I am open to the possibility that the potential 'improvements' for OD/OT may lie not in the shoulders but elsewhere. Those with a tubby face do not do themselves any favour by wearing a soft coat, especially if the waist is not particularly shaped / nipped: they just look like Doughboy in pyjamas. But then, as Bethlehemtown said, there is no accounting for taste.

I agree that we would want to see the face before forming an opinion, however there are different ways of increasing the visual weight of the shoulder- it could be slightly wider, a bit less sloped, but still soft, is such was necessary to offset any angularity in the face.

[Costi]

Two pages of talk and no pictures of successful structured shoulders yet...
Let's start with a maker who epitomizes the strong shoulder:

Well?

[Simon A]

The shoulder on the smoking jacket is attractive, but I think it is wrong on a smoking jacket. Not only is a smoking jacket supposed to be for very casual events and home wear, it is derived from the oriental shapan or kaftan, which is made shirt-fashion with no shoulder pads or chest canvas at all.

If it were on a navy blue military-style blazer, I would say "wow".

[oldog/oldtrix]

Wow. All this from a simple "phooey." I suppose I could whine that the apparent shape of me in the photos above is the result of camera angle and the static, two dimensionality of photography in general. I could say that, "but that would be wrong." Within the constraints of the medium, the pictures are reasonably close to the way I appear in real life, and that's the way I want to appear. Here's a picture that almost got me thrown off another forum; it shows the tailor's dummy on which my suits sit.



Perhaps Mr. Alden will give me dispensation in light of the neckerchief.

[shredder]

Now THAT is an angular face!

[Costi]

I find your reaction as natural as your coat's shoulders, oldog! And that is certainly a very new trick
Now... how do we dress this dummy? Do we stuff the shoulders with newspapers, as tailors sometimes do when they put a larger coat on a dummy?

[Costi]

The shoulder on the smoking jacket is attractive, but I think it is wrong on a smoking jacket. Not only is a smoking jacket supposed to be for very casual events and home wear, it is derived from the oriental shapan or kaftan, which is made shirt-fashion with no shoulder pads or chest canvas at all.

If it were on a navy blue military-style blazer, I would say "wow".

What do you mean? Isn't a set of Robocop structured shoulders the non plus ultra of male elegance any time?
All the wearer can hope is for the smoke to be thick enough that his guests don't notice much...