The Social Constitution of Taste

"He had that supreme elegance of being, quite simply, what he was."

-C. Albaret describing Marcel Proust

Style, chic, presence, sex appeal: whatever you call it, you can discuss it here.
Costi
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:29 pm
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:40 pm

alden wrote:Shopping is more fun and certainly easier than coming to terms with one’s imperfections.
Ha! We could use this as a motto for the "Bespoke" section.

Of course, you refer to dress as opposed to clothes - therefore "shopping", but I believe going through the bespoke process, with your eyes open, has both curative and instructive virtues. It can help you create your dress starting from what you have - body and spirit (that is, of course, unless you order suits remotely by the dozen thinking you'll look good just because they are "bespoke"). It is the Bach concept of "fortsetzen" (setting forth), according to which music should proceed from music, each phrase springing forth naturally from the previous, rather than start anew - transposed to dress. Access your seed of style and proceed from it to create, to invent your dress, taking inspiration from the world around. The result will be increased confidence (another style keyword, I believe).
alden
Posts: 8206
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:58 am
Contact:

Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:48 pm

Costi,

Whether it is bespoke or ready-to-wear, the unfortunate majority of men default to costume in their dress. And costume is rarely if ever stylish because it displays rupture with the self. Great performers can be convincing in costume when they are able to embody the self of the character they play.

There are many flavors of confidence. Let’s start by saying that there is nothing vulgar in style. Naïve confidence, false bravado, boasting, gloating etc. is vulgar.

The kind of confidence that embodies style is that born of resignation, born of experience, a kind of “you can’t touch me, I’ve survived that already.” A great example of this detached confidence is seen in the lyrics written by Claude Francois in the song made famous by Frank Sinatra, “My Way.”

And now, the end is here
And so I face the final curtain
My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain
I've lived a life that's full
I traveled each and ev'ry highway
And more, much more than this, I did it my way

Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, too few to mention
I did what I had to do and saw it through without exemption
I planned each charted course, each careful step along the byway
And more, much more than this, I did it my way

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew
But through it all, when there was doubt
I ate it up and spit it out
I faced it all and I stood tall and did it my way

I've loved, I've laughed and cried
I've had my fill, my share of losing
And now, as tears subside, I find it all so amusing
To think I did all that
And may I say, not in a shy way,
"Oh, no, oh, no, not me, I did it my way"

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught
To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels
The record shows I took the blows and did it my way!

Yes, it was my way
Costi
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:29 pm
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:48 pm

Michael, indeed, that is the kind of confidence I was thinking about - the kind that follows from experience. The idea with the process of bespoke was a WAY to approach, to get near that seed, make it germinate - not a way to fill the closet.
I must have driven you (all) crazy with Celibidache the last few days, but his talking is just so dense (little though he speaks). Please watch the first 75 seconds or so from this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUdLQP8k4RM

"You must understand this truth", he says to one of his students: "You are the Truth and there is no other".

If you have time and patience, watch the clip to the end - it's all excellent music and more food for thought (at least for me). The man had hypnotic magnetism and certainly had it his way, all the way...
yialabis
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:32 am
Location: ATHENS
Contact:

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:35 am

My shirt maker in Athens , is a 70+ year old man . A Greek from Alexandria (Egypt) . The Greeks that come from that part of the world are all very well educated and have kept the old traditions of manners and style , also of matter in the sense of what is important in life.
He learned his craft there in a French school of couture in 1958. The first time we spoke on the phone , I explained to him a few things that I would like him to do on my shirts if I was to become a customer . he said " why do you want these things done sir "? .... I -the ignorant one- replied "because this way it will look beautiful"... he then said " only we can look beautiful sir .. my shirts can not and will never be able to do this for you sir"

I think style/taste can only come from the inside as both of you M+C have already written and displayed in this forum .

Vassilis
Costi
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:29 pm
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:18 am

Vassilis, a man who speaks like that IS not a shirtmaker, he just MAKES shirts...

Men of style refuse to become a cliche that embodies the traits of their occupations as they are represented in the collective imaginary. They don't let themselves defined by what they DO. "I am a doctor" is a figure of speech - unless you really ARE a human robot doctor and nothing more. You may have degrees in medicine, music and mathematics at the same time - which defines you in such measure that you can say " I AM a doctor, a musician or a mathematician"?
The trend of overly narrow specialization in professional life tends to make people identify themselves with what they do. Of course, there are people who may say "I AM a painter" without making any mistake, but for most this is a psychological trap that makes one unconsciously adopt the expectations of others. This is another barrier in the way of bringing one's full potential as a human being to the surface. We cannot all be da Vinci, but we should at least keep the possibilities open.
Gruto

Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:15 pm

yialabis wrote:I think style/taste can only come from the inside as both of you M+C have already written and displayed in this forum .
Style and taste might very well come from the inside but it's doesn't mean that style and taste are in any way personal, authentic or interesting. We shouldn't forget that. To quote Oscar W:

"Most People Are Other People. Their Thoughts Are Someone Elses Opinions, Their Lives a Mimicry, Their Passions a Quotation."
storeynicholas

Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:23 pm

Gruto wrote:
yialabis wrote:I think style/taste can only come from the inside as both of you M+C have already written and displayed in this forum .
Style and taste might very well come from the inside but it's doesn't mean that style and taste are in any way personal, authentic or interesting. We shouldn't forget that. To quote Oscar W:

"Most People Are Other People. Their Thoughts Are Someone Elses Opinions, Their Lives a Mimicry, Their Passions a Quotation."
Gone off Groucho Marx have we?
NJS
Gruto

Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:26 pm

storeynicholas wrote:
Gruto wrote:
yialabis wrote:I think style/taste can only come from the inside as both of you M+C have already written and displayed in this forum .
Style and taste might very well come from the inside but it's doesn't mean that style and taste are in any way personal, authentic or interesting. We shouldn't forget that. To quote Oscar W:

"Most People Are Other People. Their Thoughts Are Someone Elses Opinions, Their Lives a Mimicry, Their Passions a Quotation."
Gone off Groucho Marx have we?
NJS
I'd love to quote him too :D
storeynicholas

Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:41 pm

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." :D Groucho Marx, an individualist.
NJS
Costi
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:29 pm
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:15 pm

“Everything is good as it leaves the hands of the Author of things; everything degenerates in the hands of man.”
- writes Jean-Jacques Rousseau in the opening of Emile.

Cardinal values are not earned, but innate – seeded in Man by the Author. The purpose of education should be to preserve and refine these innate abilities, as well as the kenness of the senses, the power of observation, gaining knowledge by inference.

“Whether my pupil is destined for the army, the church, or the law, is of little import. […] Life is the trade I want to teach him. Leaving my hands I grant you he will be neither a magistrate, a soldier, nor a priest; he will be first of all a man. […] In vain can fortune change his station; he will always be in his right place.”

As for the social forces at work upon Man -
“Good social institutions are those that know best how to denature man, to take away his absolute existence in order to give him a relative one, and to transport the "me" into a common unity so that each individual no longer regards himself as one but as a part of the unity and is sensitive only to the whole.”

Cultivation and education should mean nurturing the natural potential, preserving spontaneity, rather than the intellectual deformation of reality.
If we are old enough that the damage is already done, there is always a chance to recover some of the original “innocence”. It’s fun, it’s liberating and anyone can do it.
alden
Posts: 8206
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:58 am
Contact:

Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:48 pm

Style and taste might very well come from the inside but it's doesn't mean that style and taste are in any way personal, authentic or interesting. We shouldn't forget that. To quote Oscar W:

"Most People Are Other People. Their Thoughts Are Someone Elses Opinions, Their Lives a Mimicry, Their Passions a Quotation."
In the Great photos section of this site we have gathered a portfolio of stylish men and woman from the past 150 years or so and there are maybe 50 or 60 of them. So, let me say it once again, we are not talking about “most people” but rather a handful of very extraordinary people and trying to determine what made them so attractive.

“Those lucky few found a way to be truly themselves. Their thoughts and manner of expression were altogether original and they were prized and sought after for that individuality. Their passions still inspire anyone with an open mind who would wish to learn from them.”

I am not sure that "interesting" is a style key word. Its a very weak and overly general adjective. But Wilde himself is a great example of both authentic and personal as was dandyism.."the last spark of heroism and decadence;...Dandyism is a sunset; like the declining daystar, it is glorious, without heat and full of melancholy." Charles Baudelaire
If we are old enough that the damage is already done, there is always a chance to recover some of the original “innocence”. It’s fun, it’s liberating and anyone can do it.
That is great message Costi and so very true.

Cheers

Michael
Costi
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:29 pm
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:52 pm

Gruto wrote:Style and taste might very well come from the inside but it's doesn't mean that style and taste are in any way personal, authentic or interesting. We shouldn't forget that.
I agree that MODES are borrowed, in that we don't dress in togas like the ancients, or like the medievals, or like the Victorians. Nor did we invent a revolutionary new way to cover our nudity. However, taste and style are profoundly personal, authentic (and hopefully interesting) and apply to any and all ages and modes. Even these borrowed modes that give us a historical identity (the worsted suit, the tweed jacket, the flannel trousers, the Fedora hat, the Brogue shoe) are personalized according to the individual taste and style.
Gruto wrote:To quote Oscar W:

"Most People Are Other People. Their Thoughts Are Someone Elses Opinions, Their Lives a Mimicry, Their Passions a Quotation."
Excellent quotation - what Wilde means is to deplore those people who never "possess their soul" before they die, who never "come into contact with their soul", who never realize their true nature and potential. A great passage - here is the context:

"I bore up against everything with some stubbornness of will and much rebellion of nature, till I had absolutely nothing left in the world but one thing. I had lost my name, my position, my happiness, my freedom, my wealth. I was a prisoner and a pauper. But I still had my children left. Suddenly they were taken away from me by the law. It was a blow so appalling that I did not know what to do, so I flung myself on my knees, and bowed my head, and wept, and said, 'The body of a child is as the body of the Lord: I am not worthy of either.' That moment seemed to save me. I saw then that the only thing for me was to accept everything. Since then - curious as it will no doubt sound - I have been happier. It was of course my soul in its ultimate essence that I had reached. In many ways I had been its enemy, but I found it waiting for me as a friend. When one comes in contact with the soul it makes one simple as a child, as Christ said one should be.

It is tragic how few people ever 'possess their souls' before they die. 'Nothing is more rare in any man,' says Emerson, 'than an act of his own.' It is quite true. Most people are other people. Their thoughts are some one else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. Christ was not merely the supreme individualist, but he was the first individualist in history. People have tried to make him out an ordinary philanthropist, or ranked him as an altruist with the scientific and sentimental. But he was really neither one nor the other. Pity he has, of course, for the poor, for those who are shut up in prisons, for the lowly, for the wretched; but he has far more pity for the rich, for the hard hedonists, for those who waste their freedom in becoming slaves to things, for those who wear soft raiment and live in kings' houses. Riches and pleasure seemed to him to be really greater tragedies than poverty or sorrow. And as for altruism, who knew better than he that it is vocation not volition that determines us, and that one cannot gather grapes of thorns or figs from thistles?"
- De Profundis, Oscar Wilde
alden
Posts: 8206
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:58 am
Contact:

Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:36 pm

I agree that MODES are borrowed, in that we don't dress in togas like the ancients, or like the medievals, or like the Victorians. Nor did we invent a revolutionary new way to cover our nudity.
The discussion of the phenomenon of style (or chic, or charisma, or presence, call it what you will) has little to nothing to do about clothes, or fashion or mode or tendance. Its been said a few times now. Instead, we are studying a gift of expression that includes speech, things communicated without speech, looks, personality, demeanor, intelligence, humor, wit, strength of character, sexual charisma and attractiveness,...and since most of the subjects of our study are clothed...we should mention their clothes as well...probably.

I think it must be very hard to imagine presence and charisma without having actually experienced it in life. I am pretty fortunate to have seen and in some cases met and in some cases spoken with a half dozen of the men whose photos we often study. I was a young man and probably impressionable but I can recall every instant of those sightings. And frankly speaking those kinds of personalities have become pretty rare. Sometimes I see flashes of what they possessed in men and women and I am curious to know if we can come to some kind of definition or lexicon that can lead us to understand what is simply and lazily called je ne sais quoi by most men.

Once again, here is Balzac's stab at it: “It is an exquisite sense of tact, whose constant use and practice allows us to see otherwise hidden relationships, predict consequences, imagine the true dimensions and import of objects, words, ideas and beings, for, to summarize, the principle of Elegance is the vision of order, balance and harmony that reveals the intrinsic poetry of all things."
There are only a few sentences in his "Treatise on the Elegant Life" that even mention clothes.

Cheers

M Alden
Costi
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:29 pm
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:56 pm

alden wrote:
I agree that MODES are borrowed, in that we don't dress in togas like the ancients, or like the medievals, or like the Victorians. Nor did we invent a revolutionary new way to cover our nudity.
The discussion of the phenomenon of style (or chic, or charisma, or presence, call it what you will) has little to nothing to do about clothes, or fashion or mode or tendance.
I was simply trying to guess at what Gruto meant when he wrote that
Gruto wrote:Style and taste might very well come from the inside but it's doesn't mean that style and taste are in any way personal, authentic or interesting. We shouldn't forget that.
Clothes are, as far their expression of an age is concerned (I called it mode), imported from the outside world. I may have misunderstood what he referred to, but I thought that "style" as Michael employs it certainly could not be described as not personal or authentic.
Frog in Suit
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:42 pm
Contact:

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:53 pm

storeynicholas wrote:"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." :D Groucho Marx, an individualist.
NJS

I thought that was management consulting :twisted: .

Frog in Suit
Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests