Collar-replacement on Covert Coat

[Guest]

^ Sartorius

[Guest]

The dictionary quoted here seems to support my view: it has a secondary "t-less" pronunciation in the case of the noun only.

Sorry to be pedantic but this is really quite interesting. Would somebody mind posting the guide to the symbols in the scanned Longman Dictionary above? If it does indeed support the pronunciation FiS suggests, I would like hard evidence (being not just under 50 but just about under 40 as well! ).

The symbols in question are standard IPA ones (International Phonetics Association or Alphabet ?). You can download them, the problem being reproducing the sound if you are not familiar with the system. For instance, an upside down "v" (which I cannot find on my keyboard) corresponds to the vowel in "duck". A good bilingual English dictionary which included a pronounciation guide might give an explanation of the phonetics symbols in its foreword (my old Harraps Fr/En, En/Fr in two volumes does.)

I was extremely fortunate in that my first English teacher, when I was ten or eleven, forced us to first learn the IPA (only as far as English sounds are concerned) for a few weeks at least, before we were allowed to see any written English, so we would not be tempted to be guided by French (e.g., to pronounce "mister" as "meestair").

Here is an introduction to the IPA system (way over my head) to give you an idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... c_Alphabet

Page 2 of the following pdf probably gives you all you need to know (and about all I know!):

http://www.personal.rdg.ac.uk/~llsroach/encyc.pdf

You can piece together the words in Longman's from the symbols in page two, just above.

I hope this helps.

Frog in Suit

[Guest]

According to my Longman Pronunciation Dictionary, as a noun the 't' is always heard. As an adjective, the t-sound may be omitted. Actually, only 9% of native speakers are supposed to pronounce the it in this case. Which is the LL members preference?



Marcelo

The dictionary quoted here seems to support my view: it has a secondary "t-less" pronunciation in the case of the noun only. I do not see any evidence of it in the adjective. The statistics quoted concern the first syllable ("cov-") of the adjective. I have heard only "cover" (no "t") when applied to the coat (noun). My own pronouncing dictionary (Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary) does not agree with me (Hard evidence has never stopped me from sticking to my guns ).

Could the native BE speakers on the forum (RP only, preferably over fifty years of age, with a demonstrated interest in a) field sports b) bespoke tailoring ) decide the matter?

Frog in Suit

For the pronunciation of the noun “covert”, Longman recommends the first listed pronunciation, with a t-sound. The dictionary’s convention is that the recommended pronunciation appears in blue, and alternative pronunciations in black type. Now, if “covert coat” is pronounced with a mute “t”, it is perhaps due to what linguists call “assimilation”. Because the second words starts with a consonant, the last consonant of the first word is not pronounced, as in “I must sell” which is rendered in phonetic transcription more or less like this: [ai ms ‘sel], the t-sound disappears in “must”. Well, this is only a tentative hypothesis of a non-native speaker.

Marcelo

[Guest]

FiS - Thanks. I will look up the symbols.

Marcelo - an interesting hypothesis. However, in the case of "covert" the first vowel will sound different depending on whether you sound the t, so I'm not sure your theory works for this particular example.

Sartorius

[Guest]

Marcelo,

This is an interesting point.

Now what I would like to know is the correct pronounciation of a "covert" in the sense of "bush, thicket" where game would find shelter. Hence, my previous (only half joking) specification of someone "with a demonstrated interest in field sports" as a preferred source.

Frog in Suit

[Guest]

FiS - Thanks. I will look up the symbols.

Marcelo - an interesting hypothesis. However, in the case of "covert" the first vowel will sound different depending on whether you sound the t, so I'm not sure your theory works for this particular example.

Sartorius

Up to a point . Longman's first pronounciation of the noun offers a choice of pronouncing the "t" or not, but the first syllable stays the same in both cases.

Frog in Suit

[Guest]

In 'must sell' the 't' is lost through laziness not correct pronunciation and the same goes for, say, the second 'n' in 'penknife'. I have a good friend of 30 years' standing for whom shooting gamebirds and deer is a main purpose of living and he says that it is 'cover' and no 't'. He is also an enthusiastic member of the Carlton, the Savage and the Travellers, where the state of the coverts is often a topic of earnest conversation, between people who own miles of the stuff - as in "I said to him and he said to me, blah,blah, blah". He is the "damned fine shot" mentioned in my book; although at the moment, crimson-faced with very well made pink gins, and (to my mind) justifiable anger, he and his clubmen are probably devoting more time to the issue of how the country has gorn to the dawgs. I am sure that the full OED must have the pronunciation of 'covert' as a noun and, probably, Fowlers' Modern English Usage has it too - anyone have those to hand? - unless old Critch's say clinches it.
NJS

[Guest]

In 'must sell' the 't' is lost through laziness not correct pronunciation and the same goes for, say, the second 'n' in 'penknife'. I have a good friend of 30 years' standing for whom shooting gamebirds and deer is a main purpose of living and he says that it is 'cover' and no 't'. He is also an enthusiastic member of the Carlton, the Savage and the Travellers, where the state of the coverts is often a topic of earnest conversation, between people who own miles of the stuff - as in "I said to him and he said to me, blah,blah, blah". He is the "damned fine shot" mentioned in my book; although at the moment, crimson-faced with very well made pink gins, and (to my mind) justifiable anger, he and his clubmen are probably devoting more time to the issue of how the country has gorn to the dawgs. I am sure that the full OED must have the pronunciation of 'covert' as a noun and, probably, Fowlers' Modern English Usage has it too - anyone have those to hand? - unless old Critch's say clinches it.
NJS

Thank you, NJS.

Your friend is precisely the kind of source needed here. The fact that he pronounces "dawgs" and "gorn" ("orf" as well I suppose ) certainly clinches it for me!

I am grateful to him.

Frog in Suit

[Guest]

Ha! ha! the 'gorn' and 'dawgs' is just a joke - although he doesn't pronounce his rs very clearly which might add a bit more weight to his opinion!!
NJS

[Guest]

Ha! ha! the 'gorn' and 'dawgs' is just a joke - although he doesn't pronounce his rs very clearly which might add a bit more weight to his opinion!!
NJS

Does he have 6 rows of railroad stitching on his covert coat?

[Guest]

^shredder

[Guest]

Ha! ha! the 'gorn' and 'dawgs' is just a joke - although he doesn't pronounce his rs very clearly which might add a bit more weight to his opinion!!
NJS

Does he have 6 rows of railroad stitching on his covert coat?

Oh! I am not sure that he has a covert coat at all. As far as I know, he has a heavy, dark hand-me-down (originally bespoke) town overcoat, a Burberry mac which also started out as someone else's (he says that it was accidentally swapped on a train) and very old tweeds and a Barbour for his shooting. In a rural setting, I am sure that, but for his guns, he might be taken for a tramp.

This reminds me of a story that my grandmother told me. In the 1920s or 1930s someone went to visit my great grandfather, who lived in a remote place and the visitor got lost but, fortunately, he came across a gentleman of the road who was familiar with the area and knew where my GGF lived and gave clear directions. On arrival at the house, the visitor was let in and started talking to members of the family about how he had got lost but that the day had been saved by a very civil gentleman of the road. At this point, the gentleman of the road (who must have had a sense of humour) came into the room and greeted his surprised visitor.
NJS

[Guest]

Up to a point . Longman's first pronounciation of the noun offers a choice of pronouncing the "t" or not, but the first syllable stays the same in both cases.

Ah. So you (or, more precisely, Longman's) are suggesting that I could pronounce or leave out the "t" in the following sentence:

"The fox had gone to ground just beyond a covert." In either case, the first vowel sound would be a flat "u" sound (as in "up") rather than an "o" sound (as in "open")?

What about the sentence "Take cover!". Should that actually be spelt "covert"?

Sartorius

[Guest]

Up to a point . Longman's first pronounciation of the noun offers a choice of pronouncing the "t" or not, but the first syllable stays the same in both cases.

Ah. So you (or, more precisely, Longman's) are suggesting that I could pronounce or leave out the "t" in the following sentence:

"The fox had gone to ground just beyond a covert." In either case, the first vowel sound would be a flat "u" sound (as in "up") rather than an "o" sound (as in "open")?

What about the sentence "Take cover!". Should that actually be spelt "covert"?

Sartorius

"Covert" in the first sentence and "cover" in the second have the same pronounciation. The first syllable sounds like "Duck!" as in "Take cover!"

Why ask a Frenchman about English pronounciation? I was found wrong at least once (Sheppard, wich I thought rhymed with "bard")....

Frog in Suit

[Guest]

In 'must sell' the 't' is lost through laziness not correct pronunciation and the same goes for, say, the second 'n' in 'penknife'. [...]
NJS

How do native speakers pronounce “roast beef”? Is it out of laziness or hunger that – I assume – they refrain from pronouncing the final “t” in the first word?

Anyway, I am pretty sure I read something about the mute "t" in "covert" in a book entitled The Very Best of British, by Nicholas Courtney. I think it was in the chapter on shooting, but I have not been able to find the relevant passage. This is, by the away, a very amusing book, full of references to sartorial topics.

Marcelo