Ties not required

[storeynicholas]

I would entirely agree that there is no excuse for entering restaurants in London (or anywhere else) with clothing undone - but this and the wearing of Tee shirts are all part of the same phenomenon - the two fingers' dressing style. I mentioned Les Ambassadeurs because it is about as near a James Bond set as most of us are likely to get and, indeed, its name was used for the casino settting at the beginning of the film Dr No and includes the cinematic introduction of Bond, at the Baccarat table, with the lines:

Bond: 'I admire your courage, Miss er...?'
Reply: 'Trench - Sylvia Trench. I admire your luck, Mr...?' -
Rejoinder: 'Bond -- James Bond.''

Les A don't offer Baccarat (at least on the main gaming floor; private rooms might be different) - just Punto Banco - a watered down version - but, on some nights that long table, under the big shades, used to get packed and they let the players draw the cards in turn to add to the buzz, The tie and coat rule used to apply; mind you, for most of the players, the existence of the rule was unknown because it would never have occurred to them to go in there in anything else. Most of the blackjack tables are around the inside of the doors out onto the wrap-around balcony, overlooking Hyde Park, and they too can get busy but people used to know how to behave.

There is no rule that you may not play blackjack on different tables simultaneously; strolling to and fro' at a leisurely pace, taking a card or standing, just as and when you please (often without any semblance of method, purpose or even any apprehension of basic strategy'). If your fists are loaded with top end chips and you like to dump them down on empty boxes even though seated players are finding their stride, of course, that's just fine. In fact, the gay abandon with which sir is just about throwing his mysteriously gained money at us, that's very fine indeed. Is sir doing it to demonstrate that sir is so very much richer than these little people sweating over their paltry play? This is two fingers' playing style.

One day, during a game of blackjack at Les A, a hairy, Tee-shirted arm pushed past me and dumped chips indescriminately on an empty box; the arm withdrew and disappeared up to the next table - keeping us all waiting for the smirking mouth attached to the hairy arm. At next table and the next the same performance was played out - up and down the line of tables the hairy arm went - I saw the individual attached to the hairy arm - in a beige Tee shirt and - is it black Chinos? - It all took the gilt off the gingerbread for me and it could not have been by chance that they served tinned soup that night. How it is there now I just don't know and I nearly do not care.

There's not much that we can do about the Tee shirts and the navel-gazers, except refuse to follow their lead and ignore them but it is all very sad that places such as Les A have lowered the tone.
NJS

[oldog/oldtrix]

I admit there are a few possibilities of being dressed elegantly without wearing a tie, even at a fine restaurant in the evening. The requirement for a tie is not always taken literally, but as an indication of classic elegant dress - a man showing up at a good restaurant wearing a pair of polished proper shoes, a well tailored suit and shirt with a bow tie or even an elegant ascot and pocket square is not likely to be refused entrance.

I’m reminded of an incident that happened in Boston about 20 years ago. My companion and I had finished our dinner at an upscale trattoria (but still a trattoria) at about midnight and decided we’d like to relax with a nightcap in pleasant surroundings. It was a typical Boston winter’s night and, to accommodate both the weather and an evening out, I was wearing a charcoal flannel suit, black cashmere turtleneck and black calf Chelsea boots. My companion suggested the bar/lounge of a fine hotel nearby. As a visitor to Boston, I did not know anything about the place. When we presented ourselves to the host he refused us admission on the grounds that I was sans necktie. He did offer me a house tie, but I opined, in good humor, that a tie with a turtleneck would do nothing to enhance the tone of the joint and we went elsewhere. While I won’t claim elegance, my appearance compared more than favorably with that of the tie wearing brahmins I observed over the captain’s shoulder, though there may have been better dressed patrons that I could not see. The punchline is that I was in Boston last month, happened by the same hotel on a Saturday night, and, since I was wearing a suit and tie, suggested a look around the bar. I believe more than half of the male patrons had dressed for the eventuality of spilling their beers on themselves, as they wear clad in denim. I saw only two ties besides my own. Sic transit gloria.

[sartorius]

Let us not forget that ties are not banned in these establishments, and moreover that boorish behaviour will be boorish whether or not the culprit is wearing a tie. Perhaps there is some correlation between smartness of dress and smartness of manners, but the lines are blurring, as anyone who has been to Royal Ascot in recent years will attest.

I am also not convinced by the claim that these establishments are pandering to the monied few. For one thing, that is a very risky strategy, since fewer but richer clients may lead simply to fewer clients (particularly at present, when half the hedge fund community are said to have been ruined by the credit crunch). It also smacks rather too much of the conspiracy theory: said establishment has just changed its rules in a manner to which I object, ergo it must have something against me and be favouring that other bunch.

I suspect that it is simply reflective of the fact that neckwear is much less prevalent these days, regretable though that may be for some (and I count myself among that number).

[troutonthefly]

Men should be required to be dressed out of respect to others.......
M Alden

Couldn't agree more, Michael.

A brief glance around the pews last Sunday showed less than a quarter of the men in the congregation wearing ties. It appeared I was the youngest man in a tie, and I'm a shade past 40. Just an observation.......

Granted, it could be said that what was going on inside a person at that time was the important matter.

[Cordovan]

The new President it seems, is following suit (or lack thereof)...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/us/po ... se.html?em

Oh the Shame!

Cordovan

[marcelo]

(...) Perhaps there is some correlation between smartness of dress and smartness of manners, but the lines are blurring, as anyone who has been to Royal Ascot in recent years will attest. (...)

While reading an article on the Royal Ascot, I came across a word the meaning of which I was not yet acquainted with: “chavs, a snooty term for people with flashy bad taste.”, according to The Economist: http://www.economist.com/world/britain/ ... d=11585342

[storeynicholas]

(...) Perhaps there is some correlation between smartness of dress and smartness of manners, but the lines are blurring, as anyone who has been to Royal Ascot in recent years will attest. (...)

While reading an article on the Royal Ascot, I came across a word the meaning of which I was not yet acquainted with: “chavs, a snooty term for people with flashy bad taste.”, according to The Economist: http://www.economist.com/world/britain/ ... d=11585342

I thought that it referred to the wives and girlfriends of celebrities, who manage to make careers out of their vicarious fame by becoming renowned for their ability to spend, spend, spend...
NJS

[sartorius]

I think you mean WAGs NJS: Wives and Girlfriends.

There were apparently more arrests at Ascot last year than during the whole of the Premier League football season.

[storeynicholas]

I think you mean WAGs NJS: Wives and Girlfriends.

There were apparently more arrests at Ascot last year than during the whole of the Premier League football season.

Thank you sartorius - WAGS - I shall remember that!! I can believe the arrest figures and should be interested to se a breakdown of the charges. Do you happen to have any idea of the derivation of 'chav'?
best,
NJS

[marcelo]

I think you mean WAGs NJS: Wives and Girlfriends.

There were apparently more arrests at Ascot last year than during the whole of the Premier League football season.

Thank you sartorius - WAGS - I shall remember that!! I can believe the arrest figures and should be interested to se a breakdown of the charges. Do you happen to have any idea of the derivation of 'chav'?
best,
NJS

There is an entry in the wikipedia for "chav": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav
But it says the origin of the term is uncertain.

[storeynicholas]

marcelo,
This is an interesting entry and also mentions the phenomenon of 'prole drift' which seems a very handy shorthand to sum up the increasing incidence of the phenomenon of two fingers' dressing and behaviour.
NJS

[Costi]

[...] mind you, for most of the players, the existence of the rule was unknown because it would never have occurred to them to go in there in anything else. [...]

Precisely! You have made the essential point here!

When we presented ourselves to the host he refused us admission on the grounds that I was sans necktie.

Perhaps the host should have had a better eye for people...

I suspect that it is simply reflective of the fact that neckwear is much less prevalent these days, regretable though that may be for some (and I count myself among that number).

Yes, this is true. Unlike the times described above by NJS, we only require people to wear clothes when in public these days. With all these shirts worn unbuttoned to the navel, I am not even sure how long THIS rule will resist...

I am also not convinced by the claim that these establishments are pandering to the monied few.

You are right, they are NOT few. Those who wouldn't think going of going out to a good restaurant in the evening in gardening clothes are few...

[Cary Grant]

But to Alan Flusser, a men’s wear designer in Manhattan who has been dining at “21” for 34 years, the no-tie policy “is unfortunate.” He added, “I’m a traditionalist, and I don’t think this sends the right message to young people.”

What "young people" ever eat at "21"?

[Costi]

I would venture to presume that he meant young people in general, not young people who eat at "21".

[marcelo]

TIES MUST BE WORN AT ALL TIMES, says this warning at the entrance of The Eccentric Club, except, of course, for the ladies gently depicted en déshabille. I wonder if those bastions of sartorial decorum have also relaxed their rules.