Mann on hats

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

Costi
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:14 pm

couch wrote:if the other fellow was aware of the "uncovered hand" convention, he would not have minded the pause while Mann ungloved.
If so, then he must also have been aware that he was not supposed to extend his hand to Mann unless the latter had innitiated the handshake.
If Mann extended his gloved hand first, then it is the younger man who saved face by shaking hands anyway... (would you refuse to shake hands with Mann if he extended a gloved hand?!... :roll: )
couch wrote:Convenient that a photographer appeared at that moment.
Very much so - now we have a subject :wink:
However, a movie camera might have also caught Mann saying: "Please excuse the glove, I burnt my hand this morning"...
Costi
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:55 pm

couch wrote:Do we know who the other man was?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandor_Marai
hectorm
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:46 pm

couch wrote: Do we know who the other man was?

Until someone comes with the real identity, I want to believe that the other man is Alban Berg. He was in Berlin for the performance of Wozzeck, he recognized Mann, he removed his hat and couldn´t help but extending his ungloved hand.
Costi
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:12 pm

Hectorm, we have the identity, look above.
couch
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:38 pm

Costi wrote:
couch wrote:if the other fellow was aware of the "uncovered hand" convention, he would not have minded the pause while Mann ungloved.
If so, then he must also have been aware that he was not supposed to extend his hand to Mann unless the latter had innitiated the handshake.
At first I didn't follow you here, as I did not assume from the photo that Mann was significantly older than Márai, or that the latter was otherwise inferior in precedence (although no doubt the Nobel would enhance Mann's dignity) and so inhibit him from initiating the action--especially if the two writers were friendly, as they appear to be. When equals meet and both are wearing gloves (as these two are), presumably it's not incorrect for either to remove his glove first and extend his hand to initiate a handshake? Someone has to start!

If, as you suggest, Mann was the elder, then indeed it was his prerogative to make the first move, in which case your 'burned hand' hypothesis diplomatically excuses him for the glove.

In my experience, admittedly more often North American than European, the age differential is usually discounted today in such exchanges between men unless one party is either quite young or quite senior. In business settings, if there is a significant disparity in position, the more powerful man retains the right to initiate, but is often happy to accept a forthright approach rather than a respectful diffidence, and things may be complicated when he is the younger of the two. But then our customs do tend to the pragmatic, and perhaps Mann and Márai would have felt their social differences more acutely.

Etiquette in some services of the U.S. military permits one glove to be removed for introductory handshakes, if it does not create an awkward delay, but it is not required except when shaking hands with a head of state or church dignitary, and I'd never assume ungloved hands from uniformed military men, as castiglone recalls, since symbolically they are never unarmed.

In any case, quite a moment, prompting a pleasantly arcane conversational diversion . . . .
hectorm
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:45 pm

Costi wrote:Hectorm, we have the identity, look above.
Sorry I missed your post. Actually a whole second page of them.
I couldn´t follow the picture link either. You have certain advantage.
Costi
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:32 pm

hectorm wrote:I couldn´t follow the picture link either. You have certain advantage.
My mistake, link repaired.
Costi
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:50 pm

couch wrote:At first I didn't follow you here, as I did not assume from the photo that Mann was significantly older than Márai
Yes, Mann was 25 years Marai's senior. (Great compliment for Mann!)
couch wrote:In my experience, admittedly more often North American than European, the age differential is usually discounted today in such exchanges between men unless one party is either quite young or quite senior. In business settings, if there is a significant disparity in position, the more powerful man retains the right to initiate, but is often happy to accept a forthright approach rather than a respectful diffidence, and things may be complicated when he is the younger of the two. But then our customs do tend to the pragmatic, and perhaps Mann and Márai would have felt their social differences more acutely.
Interesting to learn these nuances. In my part of the world I have seen young men putting out their hand to introduce themselves without much ceremony: "My name is...." - only to receive a stern "Very well!" from their senior, hands firmly joined behind... However, beyond theory, I can be a genial gaffeur in these matters :oops: 8)
couch wrote:In any case, quite a moment, prompting a pleasantly arcane conversational diversion . . . .
We agree once more :)

I find that what matters most in such circumstances is the inspiration of the moment, what feels best to do, which is not always (or necessarily) what is prescribed by etiquette. I am sure Mann's gloved handshake was not meant to be in any way offensive. It was perhaps the most natural thing to do in that particular circumstance and being natural is more important than being correct, I suppose. Or at least I value it more.
Pssst
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:32 pm

Costi wrote:
couch wrote:Do we know who the other man was?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandor_Marai
Yup.

More 'Mann with hats':

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Image

Image
couch
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Costi wrote:Yes, Mann was 25 years Marai's senior. (Great compliment for Mann!)
I think your parenthesis may illustrate one cause of the decreasing emphasis given to the age differential, within the long maturity of the adult lifespan, for the purposes of daily etiquette. Many men are perhaps less likely to take it as compliment to be perceived as 'the elder' in a society that puts such a premium on youth, as compared with attitudes prior to the Second World War. Many would now prefer to be perceived as youthfully vigorous rather than seasoned and experienced, until there is no longer any question of the former. These days influence, wisdom, and power are not so closely associated with achieving a certain age as they once were, or perhaps should be. One can risk giving offence even when respect is intended.
Costi wrote: I find that what matters most in such circumstances is the inspiration of the moment, what feels best to do, which is not always (or necessarily) what is prescribed by etiquette. . . . being natural is more important than being correct, I suppose. Or at least I value it more.
And that is an example demonstrating that wisdom need not be correlated with great age!
Last edited by couch on Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
castiglione
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Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

BEFORE...AND BEYOND.
Just to add a bit of pepper to the topic. Our forefathers used the glove in formal occasions in quite a different way. With tails always in a ball to prevent the crude experience of skin to skin contact. Here you have a couple of examples.
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As to the warriors the symbol in their tombs was clear. Gloves on, fallen in action. Here the Black Prince.
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And here Sir Michael Poulteney-Misterton (Leicester)
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Never thought things would go that far. From gloves to eternity so to speak. :D
couch
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Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:43 am

Thanks for this extension of the topic, Castiglione. I have not had the opportunity to attend one, but I believe at a formal ball white gloves are still correctly worn throughout the evening except during the meal if one is served. I've seen various rationales for their indoor use in this setting: to avoid soiling the ladies' gowns while dancing, to maintain consistency of practice with uniformed military men, etc. (these all having origins in earlier eras, no doubt). And, relevant to our original topic, according to Amy Vanderbilt's New Complete Book of Etiquette as of 1963, keeping them on throughout the evening includes when shaking hands. As 1963 is now nearly fifty years ago, I can't confirm current practice. Perhaps one of our members who has attended a contemporary formal ball can enlighten us.

According to Paul Keers in A Gentleman's Wardrobe: Classic Clothes and the Modern Man (Harmony Books: New York, 1987), "taking the gloves off" normally happened when something escalated beyond civility, hence the expression. I'm suspicious about limiting the expression's origins to white gloves in formal settings, given that gloves were much more widely worn in nineteenth century society. But he may be right.

You are reminding me what a wonderful film The Leopard is—and of course Visconti would have known the correct details of traditional dress.
castiglione
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Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:43 am

It seems gloves continue to be the formal thing when it comes to balls. Here you have the Vienna event hotly contested usually by demonstrators.
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