How about a little discussion about these manners of dress? And where does it matter? London? Manhattan? Is it academic? Rhetorical? Or something even more personal such as devotion to a long-forgotten code only to be recognized by a brother?
Hmmmm.
City/Country/Lounge/Casual: Who's confused?
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Will
It matters wherever there is a man who cares about it.
City clothes in the city. Country clothes in the country. Evening clothes in the evening. None of it is overly complicated.
Some men dwell entirely in the country, and may need at most two suits for city wear. Other men live in an urban area and need little in the way of country clothing. But the principles of dress are still there for those that care about them.
City clothes in the city. Country clothes in the country. Evening clothes in the evening. None of it is overly complicated.
Some men dwell entirely in the country, and may need at most two suits for city wear. Other men live in an urban area and need little in the way of country clothing. But the principles of dress are still there for those that care about them.
Here, here! and well said! Thank you!Will wrote:It matters wherever there is a man who cares about it.
City clothes in the city. Country clothes in the country. Evening clothes in the evening. None of it is overly complicated.
Some men dwell entirely in the country, and may need at most two suits for city wear. Other men live in an urban area and need little in the way of country clothing. But the principles of dress are still there for those that care about them.
That's about as good a summary as I have read recently Will. Well done.
A man who lives in the country will require two city suits and vice versa.
If you travel to a city from the country take a city suit in your bags; if you are escaping to the country from the city pack proper country dress.
If you are visiting the city on the weekend, you might be a little more flexible with your dress "rus in urbe" but maintaining elegant "rus in urbe." That does not mean polo shirts, jeans and Nikes.
The big problem with all of these distinctions is something Americans have been faced with for decades and Europeans more and more as well: the Burbs. Suburban areas are really neither fish nor fowl. I hope no LL members ever has to live in such places, but some of you may have to do so. Maybe suburban living has killed some of the spirit of dressing that denizens of cities and country areas maintain. If you spend most of your day in a car, it has to take a toll on your elegance quotient.
A man who lives in the country will require two city suits and vice versa.
If you travel to a city from the country take a city suit in your bags; if you are escaping to the country from the city pack proper country dress.
If you are visiting the city on the weekend, you might be a little more flexible with your dress "rus in urbe" but maintaining elegant "rus in urbe." That does not mean polo shirts, jeans and Nikes.
The big problem with all of these distinctions is something Americans have been faced with for decades and Europeans more and more as well: the Burbs. Suburban areas are really neither fish nor fowl. I hope no LL members ever has to live in such places, but some of you may have to do so. Maybe suburban living has killed some of the spirit of dressing that denizens of cities and country areas maintain. If you spend most of your day in a car, it has to take a toll on your elegance quotient.
And the character of suburbs changes a lot. I spent some time in my youth in Andover, a town 25 miles north of Boston. In those days, it was somewhat isolated (considered part of Greater Lawrence), and a trip to Boston was considered something of an expedition. Now, a lot of folk commute to Boston and the feel is much more suburban and less small-town.
Boston is weird anyway. Most people in town wear tweeds to everything, and even if Boston proper is getting a little glossier nowadays, there are neighboring cities like Cambridge that are just across the river but nevertheless quite different in affect.
Boston is weird anyway. Most people in town wear tweeds to everything, and even if Boston proper is getting a little glossier nowadays, there are neighboring cities like Cambridge that are just across the river but nevertheless quite different in affect.
Very much country specific.
a) Will is right. But unless your antenae are well honed, to distinguish between the types may be difficult for you.
b) Another rule is to observe your equals and betters and follow their example.
c) The hard way: swot! Just learn it, counry by country, item by item, memorise the settings and the rules.
To give you an example. Mid week business in London: always dark blue or grey suit, black shoes. Silk pocket handkerchief outside the city only (art dealers, wine merchants etc). Same occasion in Vienna: you would look like a banker. Instead you wear a pale suit or an elegant tweed (e.g. Alsport) jacket, dark grey worsted or flannel trousers (no turnups), dark brown or black shoes, white or pale blue shirt, sombre tie, white handkerchief (no colour!). This in England would mean country, but here it does not.
Weekend clothing is even worse, because it oscilates between town and country and different formality levels at the same time.
a) Will is right. But unless your antenae are well honed, to distinguish between the types may be difficult for you.
b) Another rule is to observe your equals and betters and follow their example.
c) The hard way: swot! Just learn it, counry by country, item by item, memorise the settings and the rules.
To give you an example. Mid week business in London: always dark blue or grey suit, black shoes. Silk pocket handkerchief outside the city only (art dealers, wine merchants etc). Same occasion in Vienna: you would look like a banker. Instead you wear a pale suit or an elegant tweed (e.g. Alsport) jacket, dark grey worsted or flannel trousers (no turnups), dark brown or black shoes, white or pale blue shirt, sombre tie, white handkerchief (no colour!). This in England would mean country, but here it does not.
Weekend clothing is even worse, because it oscilates between town and country and different formality levels at the same time.
[quote="TVD"]Very much country specific.
a
To give you an example. Mid week business in London: always dark blue or grey suit, black shoes.
I was raised by my Edwardian grandparents (Boston) who spent the season in London from the 1920's to the early 1960's. They were Anglophiles to the hilt! So I had to dress (I loved it) like an Englishman; even for breakfast in their home. But that aside, I spend a lot of time in London and hang out at the Goring Hotel. I love to sit in the lobby bar and watch the fashion plates go by; especially the men. NOW...I've noticed MP's, Peers of the Realm, Royalty, all wearing bespoke pin stripe suits, but with colored socks to match their ties. It's so wonderful, they can pull that off with such aplomb . So the days of dark suits and dark socks and dark shoes, these days in London seems to be gone.
In fact I ran over to Turnbull and Asser and bought myself several 'colored' socks and 'joined' the group. If my dear departed Grandmother ever saw me in purple socks and a pin strike suit, she would have died on the spot!
a
To give you an example. Mid week business in London: always dark blue or grey suit, black shoes.
I was raised by my Edwardian grandparents (Boston) who spent the season in London from the 1920's to the early 1960's. They were Anglophiles to the hilt! So I had to dress (I loved it) like an Englishman; even for breakfast in their home. But that aside, I spend a lot of time in London and hang out at the Goring Hotel. I love to sit in the lobby bar and watch the fashion plates go by; especially the men. NOW...I've noticed MP's, Peers of the Realm, Royalty, all wearing bespoke pin stripe suits, but with colored socks to match their ties. It's so wonderful, they can pull that off with such aplomb . So the days of dark suits and dark socks and dark shoes, these days in London seems to be gone.
In fact I ran over to Turnbull and Asser and bought myself several 'colored' socks and 'joined' the group. If my dear departed Grandmother ever saw me in purple socks and a pin strike suit, she would have died on the spot!
Aha, yes, that's the answer: Murphy's a fool. 
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Mark Seitelman
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I would say that it is acceptable and also practical to wear a heavy country tweed suit on a bitterly cold day that we are experiencing in NYC today.
Of course you can take this liberty if you're the boss.
Of course you can take this liberty if you're the boss.
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DD MacDonald
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I have to say that Will has it right on this one.
City dress in the city
Country dress in the country
If you don't understand what/where the country or city are or the differences between country and city clothes, then those are the questions to ask.
The Brits have it comparatively easy with well(ish) defined country and city styles. Gray and Blue suits with black shoes for the city. Tweeds, olives, browns, and tans with brown shoes for the country and abroad.
The work-a-day week has one set of activities, the weekend another. Each has its own costume. No mix and match. FIFO.
There are a few notable cross-overs. POW suiting and suits worn to race meets come immediately to mind. Both blur the country/city line. This is where I find the British to demonstrate considerable flair in their dress and where the Italians and RL find the richest grounds for cloning the English Style.
Now, livin' in America with few traditional country activities involving clothing made from natural materials, declining standards of professional dress, and the hard-to-differentiate-morass of suburbia, there is no city/country dicotomy with which to start and few, if any hard and fast rules to grab.
Although its hard to say what to wear, I will submit two points on how to wear it:
press your shirts and polish your shoes.
This will work whether you're in the country or the city. This will even work in the suburbs - even in that horror of American institutions, the Country Club.
DDM
City dress in the city
Country dress in the country
If you don't understand what/where the country or city are or the differences between country and city clothes, then those are the questions to ask.
The Brits have it comparatively easy with well(ish) defined country and city styles. Gray and Blue suits with black shoes for the city. Tweeds, olives, browns, and tans with brown shoes for the country and abroad.
The work-a-day week has one set of activities, the weekend another. Each has its own costume. No mix and match. FIFO.
There are a few notable cross-overs. POW suiting and suits worn to race meets come immediately to mind. Both blur the country/city line. This is where I find the British to demonstrate considerable flair in their dress and where the Italians and RL find the richest grounds for cloning the English Style.
Now, livin' in America with few traditional country activities involving clothing made from natural materials, declining standards of professional dress, and the hard-to-differentiate-morass of suburbia, there is no city/country dicotomy with which to start and few, if any hard and fast rules to grab.
Although its hard to say what to wear, I will submit two points on how to wear it:
press your shirts and polish your shoes.
This will work whether you're in the country or the city. This will even work in the suburbs - even in that horror of American institutions, the Country Club.
DDM
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Will
Suburbia is where the classification defying clothing of the past can work well.
Brown tweed, Cambridge gray flannel suits or POW worsteds with brown shoes serve when one's day is more formal but suburban. Odd jackets with flannels, monk straps, and a cashmere pullover tone things down when business casual is expected.
(Conscious imitation of Alan Flusser's writing style)
Brown tweed, Cambridge gray flannel suits or POW worsteds with brown shoes serve when one's day is more formal but suburban. Odd jackets with flannels, monk straps, and a cashmere pullover tone things down when business casual is expected.
(Conscious imitation of Alan Flusser's writing style)
Last edited by Will on Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In general, the clear cut roles are simple: pure business in town will be dark(ish) grey or blue suits with black shoes; leisure in the country allows for browns, odd jackets, tweeds with brown shoes.
The difficulty is the gradation in between. What do you wear when following leisure pursuits in town. How do you dress for business in the country?
On a basic level, there is a matrix between cut / shape / type on the one hand, and cloth / colour on the other hand. So a suit is more formal than an odd jacket, dark colours are more formal than light ones, blue and grey more formal than brown, worsteds more formal than flannel, which in turn is more formal than tweed. Little details matter: patch or welted pockets, straight or hacking. Peak or notch lapels, no turnups or some.
It is important to mix formal and informal aspects to achieve the right mixture. Trying to reconcile items that are on the diametrically opposed sides of the spectrum is difficult and often results in an incongrous look. Easier to stay within one or two notches of formality. Certain details are simply wrong on certain types of garnment. Not so much eccentric as odd, or better plain wrong. There is no other way than learning it.
In my opinion the most difficult look to achieve is the man about town going about leisure. It is fairly formal (i.e. suit), but should not shout "business". A certain flamboyance of cut, a luxury and paleness of cloth, an element of rakishness in the choice of shoes (either a very elegant last, or the type - boots or monks - or brown colour) and absence of formality in the choice of shirt and tie (no white collar or cuffs) will combine to produce the desired effect. It is impossible to explain it without the presence of an example specimen. And they are getting rare indeed.
The difficulty is the gradation in between. What do you wear when following leisure pursuits in town. How do you dress for business in the country?
On a basic level, there is a matrix between cut / shape / type on the one hand, and cloth / colour on the other hand. So a suit is more formal than an odd jacket, dark colours are more formal than light ones, blue and grey more formal than brown, worsteds more formal than flannel, which in turn is more formal than tweed. Little details matter: patch or welted pockets, straight or hacking. Peak or notch lapels, no turnups or some.
It is important to mix formal and informal aspects to achieve the right mixture. Trying to reconcile items that are on the diametrically opposed sides of the spectrum is difficult and often results in an incongrous look. Easier to stay within one or two notches of formality. Certain details are simply wrong on certain types of garnment. Not so much eccentric as odd, or better plain wrong. There is no other way than learning it.
In my opinion the most difficult look to achieve is the man about town going about leisure. It is fairly formal (i.e. suit), but should not shout "business". A certain flamboyance of cut, a luxury and paleness of cloth, an element of rakishness in the choice of shoes (either a very elegant last, or the type - boots or monks - or brown colour) and absence of formality in the choice of shirt and tie (no white collar or cuffs) will combine to produce the desired effect. It is impossible to explain it without the presence of an example specimen. And they are getting rare indeed.
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Cufflink79
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Ah Suburbia, were you can find the" Ward Clevers" and "Father knows Best" crowd. Well, at least thats the way it should be or used to be. Being born in 1979 I missed out on the hayday of seeing men in tweed jackets on the weekend and suits and hats for the workdays. I did get to see some of it during the 80s but the 90s changed all that. Now it is T-shirts and jeans and casual sunday at church. I still however proudly wear my suit and tie to church. One day I was wearing one of my tweed jackets on a cool Saturday afternoon and one the neighbors said "what are you dressed up for?" I said "have you not seen me in my suit lately, if so then you know this is casual?" The days of a hat and leather briefcase for work are gone but not forgotten.
Best Regards,
Cufflink79
Best Regards,
Cufflink79
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