Vertical line

[alden]

On a coat with a natural shoulder, when the arm hangs relaxed, should the angle of the sleeve project from the body with it or hang close to vertical?

The sleeve projecting at an angle is the result of a too narrow shoulder. The length of the shoulder should allow a perfectly vertical line to the sleeves from the sleevehead..the image I have often used is one of a waterfall.



Memorize this image, it comes pretty close to perfection in a natural shoulder suit:



One sign of a narrow shoulder is the collapsing of the sleeve just below the sleevehead. The following is a very natural, but too narrow shoulder:



Unfortunately, the trend these days in bepoke, MTM and RTW is narrow shoulders. So look for the waterfall and make sure there are no hollow spaces in the sleeve.

Good luck!

Michael Alden

[iammatt]

Great pictures, but can you clarify one point. Are you saying that an indentation is the result of the jacket shoulders being too narrow for the body's shoulders? If so, I have been seeing things a bit backwards.

Thanks so much for the explanation.

[alden]

Actually a too short or too long shoulder will cause problems with the proper line of the sleeves. In the picture with the indentation shown above one would note the extreme angle and bowing outwards of the sleeve as a symptom of a too narrow shoulder.

I must say that one rarely, rarely sees a overly long shoulder on a bespoke suit these days. They all tend to be too narrow. An overly long shoulder will show much too much drape and folds on the front of the jacket. The sleeve may also show signs of buckling.

[iammatt]

That makes sense. I have a jacket that has that look, and I kep thinking that I didn't have enough shoulder to fill out the indentation, but every time I measured, The point to point was the same or slightly smaller than other jackets. Your explanation clears that up.

BTW, the top picture is of an absolutly stunning jacket. I hope you get a lot of pleasure from it. Due to the spalla camicia, I am assuming that it was made in Naples or its environs. Have you noticed that different tailors that you have frequented in those parts treat the waterfall shoulder differently? I have seen some that are absolutly flamboyant in their shirring and fullness, and some that are much more sedate. Often, and to me this is much of the romance of the look, the two shoulders of a jacket are not necessarily the same in this regard (Cesare Attolini once explained about this phenomenon that 'Elegance is not perfection'). Your jacket shows this in the full back picture. Is it one of those things that is a real signiture of each tailor, or does it also have to do with the artisanal nature of the way the sleeve is set leaving each shoulder slightly different and with its own personality? Possibly it is a combination of the two factors.

Also, I do not know if the second jacket is yours as well, but the pattern is stunning.

[preobrazhensky]

The question that you quoted at the top was mine, so thank you very much for the clarification, to both Alden and Manton.
I would also like to compliment Alden on his assembly of colours; in that outfit (top picture) an evident concern and understanding for modulations of tone and colour saturation is displayed which I find rare. As a painter this is of great interest to me. Most men seem to dress with an idea of harmony that does not extend beyond finding a common colour, and this, to me, is a redundant exercise, as anyone with a suitably contrived wardrobe is capable of it. Furthermore, it often produces a jumpy, collaged effect; the eye cannot settle.
In Alden's outfit we see an attention paid to the actual character of colours, where a general key is established, and through this relatives of each colour are sought.
There is here a blue scale and a brown, primary and neutral respectively, generated by the cloth of the suit. The dimishing saturation of these two scales (from the dense brown tie in the centre, out through the blues of the shirt and sweater and into the jacket where both brown and blue dissolve into eachother) is exemplary, and mimics in terms of tone and colour the visual effect of the "waterfall" shoulder. The V-neck also assists this motion outwards from the tie.
For me such an approach is more 'painterly' as opposed to collaged. The eye is allowed to slow itself and move evenly across the subtle boundaries and alterations of hue and then to perceive a unity, and this process is a rewarding and pleasurable one. Also, in the presence of such an outfit we are never so crudely made aware of the dresser's method as the decisions are based on a honed sensibility rather than a system, and this is of course more admirable and impressive.
To acquire an item for its own particular merits and then to figure how to work it into a wardrobe is a far more enjoyable and educational experience than to buy for the sake of a facile match.
Thank you for sharing your expertise.

[alden]

BTW, the top picture is of an absolutly stunning jacket. I hope you get a lot of pleasure from it. Due to the spalla camicia, I am assuming that it was made in Naples or its environs. Have you noticed that different tailors that you have frequented in those parts treat the waterfall shoulder differently? I have seen some that are absolutly flamboyant in their shirring and fullness, and some that are much more sedate. Often, and to me this is much of the romance of the look, the two shoulders of a jacket are not necessarily the same in this regard (Cesare Attolini once explained about this phenomenon that 'Elegance is not perfection'). Your jacket shows this in the full back picture. Is it one of those things that is a real signiture of each tailor, or does it also have to do with the artisanal nature of the way the sleeve is set leaving each shoulder slightly different and with its own personality? Possibly it is a combination of the two factors.

Every tailor has a different interpretation of everything, and that's what makes bespoke tailoring so interesting. A "spalla camicia" is fundamentally a simple style and yet each hand and eye will render it just a bit differently.

Cesare is fond of this expression and he is exactly right. If you want a perfect jacket, then buy RTW. It will not fit you but it will be perfect.

The variances you see in the back view of the jacket are the variances of the wearer's body. He is not ashamed of them. He certainly could add a few kilos of padding in the requisite places and make himself look like Davide but to what purpose? And wouldn't it seem a bit like hiding? It takes a certain amount of self confidence to wear natural shouldered, soft tailored clothes. But self confidence is extremely attractive. The magnetism of elegance is transmitted to the world thanks to the conductive material of confidence.

Cheers

[alden]

[iammatt]

The jacket in the top picture is stunning, but it is not my jacket nor my image. The jacket was made by the man who wears it, a friend who happens to be a tailor. It was not made in Naples but is Italian.

Every tailor has a different interpretation of everything, and that's what makes bespoke tailoring so interesting. A "spalla camicia" is fundamentally a simple style and yet each hand and eye will render it just a bit differently.

Cesare is fond of this expression and he is exactly right. If you want a perfect jacket, then buy RTW. It will not fit you but it will be perfect.

The variances you see in the back view of the jacket are the variances of the wearer's body. He is not ashamed of them. He certainly could add a few kilos of padding in the requisite places and make himself look like Davide but to what purpose? And wouldn't it seem a bit like hiding? It takes a certain amount of self confidence to wear natural shouldered, soft tailored clothes. But self confidence is extremely attractive. The magnetism of elegance is transmitted to the world thanks to the conductive material of confidence.

Cheers

Michael-

This is really great stuff. I couldn't agree more with your last sentence.

I do have one more question regarding the spalla camicia: When you say that it is fundamentally simple, I agree with you. The idea of a shirt sleeve is far simpler than a roped sleevehead. Where I think it becomes a bit trickier is when you see the very full sleevehead set into a small armhole. Many people do not like this look, however, I love it. This is where you see a very artisanal result with slightly different pleating and gathering in each shoulder performed. To me it is the beauty of the spalla camicia. Please let me know if I am missing something here, as you are one of the few people I have communicated with who both understands this kind of tailoring intimately, and speaks good enough English to really explain it to a lay person.

[Nexus]

Thank you for this post.