A Youngster's First Bespoke Experience in Asia

[Mr. Rover]

Hello all,
I believe I am one of the younger members of this forum, if not the youngest, at 16 years old.
So firstly, I'd like to introduce myself a little. My name is Raymond (Ray), and I am currently living in Taipei, Taiwan. I've been interested in elegance in dress since I had discovered the "Fedora Lounge". Experimenting with chepe (in price) but good-quality vintage clothing, I have been able to see what works and what doesn't work.
In my collection right now, I have a 30's dark navy blue pinstriped 3 piece suit, a 60's gray tweedy 3-piece suit, an early 50's blue flannel DB jacket, and a 40's Hart Schaffner Marx teal-ish DB jacket.
After having my eyes opened to things like lapel gorge and wdith, button stance, pants rises, and fedoras, naturally my feet were inkling for a chance for bespoke. Well over winter holiday, I paid a visit to Hong Kong for my first bespoke suiting. My godfather there has a very good tailor, but at my age, spending $2000USD for a suit was a little out of my league, so I went to find a different renowned tailor. I discovered Sam's tailor near the Peninsula Hotel, who is known for a slew of famous clientele.
I wanted to try a double breasted suit, inspired by one of Humphrey Bogart's suits. I have 2 3-piece suits already, and I needed a bit of variety in my wardrobe.
The first thing I asked about was fabric weight. Being used to vintage, dense fabrics, these modern fabrics were a different breed. I found a nice 13 oz. gray thick pinstripe/chalkstripe in a wool/cashmere blend, but I was struck by how flimsy it was. I was looking for something with more body, and the lady helping me find fabric kindly said it was the heaviest fabric they had. "Oh, well. I guess there's plenty more times to find better fabric."
I was more concerned about fit anyway. It's probably better to figure out kinks at my age than when I'm in college and fending for myself.
So I had my measurements at 3:30 PM and had a first fiting at 7:00PM that evening.

I printed out some photos during that break to show further what specifics I wanted, espeically in the rise of the pants and button stance of the jacket. Something I had noticed about Hong Kong DB jackets is that they like their buttons close together. I had to fight the tailor to make them 1/2" wider in stance.

More to come- 2nd fitting and the final product!


Ray


P.S. Can someone clear up what the difference is in chalkstripe and pinstripe in closeup?

[Concordia]

Nice work-- good luck.

Chalk stripes are thicker, and look, well, like chalk on a board. Which only make sense if people your age still have chalkboards in school.

Pinstripes are composed of rows of pindots, and are therefore finer and thinner.

The stripes on your suit appear to be chalkstripes.

For more examples, try Googling Holland & Sherry Collections. They have lots of pictures.

[manton]

I think the key distinction is not merely thickness but that a chalk stripe is "fuzzy". It is thus found only on cloth with a "nap" (surface fuzziness), such as woolen flannel, worsted flannel, or unfinished worsted. True pin stripes are quite distinct and not fuzzy at all. They are only found on "clear cut" worsteds, that is, tightly woven cloth with a smooth, hard finish.

[alden]

Welcome Ray,

Here is a photo that should be of help to you:



The Smiths cloth on the bottom left (#3844) is a pin stripe. The cutting sitting next to it (#3864) is a chalk stripe. The terms come very simply from the thickness of the stripe: the width of a pin and the width of a piece of chalk (or the line a piece of chalk would leave on a chalkboard.)

The 3864 is called a "broken" chalkstripe because the line is not contiuous but broken. A true chalkstripe will be of the same width but will be continuous.

This chalkstripe is the kind of design Manton is speaking of and it is quite often found on woolen flannels:



Keep us up to date on the progress of your suit.

Cheers

[manton]

Michael:

Isn't 3864 a worsted flannel or unfinished worsted? Certainly looks "fuzzy" in the picture.

But the broader question: is chalk v. pin simply a matter of width? I had always understood diifferently: that fuzziness was an essential characteristic of chalk. Also, one rarely sees stripes that thick on a true clear cut worsted. When one does, they always seem to be bead stripes or rope stripes or cable stripes. Would you refer to those as "chalk stripes"?

[alden]

Manton,

The 3864 is an unfinished worsted made to give the feel of a flannel.

Most of the time when you see a chalk on a worsted it will be a broken chalk (aka rope stripe) because a thick wide stripe on a clear cut worsted would show up quite a bit. The broken chalk is more discrete in this case and mimes the flannel effect. There is a nice Lesser 16 ozs broken chalk worsted in both navy and grey that is a good example of this treatment.

The true chalk stripe, the one we see on flannels, is a soft, fuzzy and melded in kind of a look. In French one says it is fondu, literally "melted" into the cloth. The true chalkstripe will be more fondu in a woolen flannel as opposed to a worsted flannel. That's why some of us prefer the look of the woolen flannels.

I will try and take some pictures of each to illustrate.

[JLibourel]

I was somewhat curious as to which of the Hong Kong tailors would charge $2,000 for a suit. I use W.W. Chan, and typically their prices are in the vicinity of $1,000, sometimes somewhat less, depending on fabric. Chan, Ah Man Hing Cheong and H. Baroman are generally rated as the "Big Three" of Hong Kong tailors, so I'd just be curious as to which tailor would charge that much unless a very expensive fabric were chosen.

It will be interesting to learn about your experience with Sam's. On the interenet fora, Sam's seems to be regarded as primarily catering to the tourist trade although some have posted that they do a very good job on trousers.

I must commend you on developing such a level of sartorial sophistication at so young an age. Had I done the same, I think a much great portion of my life would have been more satisfying and rewarding.

[pchong]

Welcome Ray...great to hear from a younger member...the watch forum I participate in used to have a 13 year old (he's now 21) who wrote fabulously, and up there discussing the finer points of watchmaking with us old folks, and I think all of us enjoyed the interaction. As I am sure we will with yours.

I am also about to start on a Hong Kong adventure myself...I will be visiting WW Chan tomorrow (I think they are literally upstairs of Sam's) to bespeak a DB, in grey chalkstripe. JLibourel, if you have specific tips on working with Patrick, I would greatly appreciate your hints.

Michael, the picture of the bearded man in the coat with chalk stripes looks wonderful. Can you tell us more about the fabric?

[Concordia]

I was somewhat curious as to which of the Hong Kong tailors would charge $2,000 for a suit. I use W.W. Chan, and typically their prices are in the vicinity of $1,000, sometimes somewhat less, depending on fabric.

My guess is Baromon. They were a lot more expensive than Chan when I was last (and first) there. Not worth it, IMO.

[Incroyable]

I was somewhat curious as to which of the Hong Kong tailors would charge $2,000 for a suit. I use W.W. Chan, and typically their prices are in the vicinity of $1,000, sometimes somewhat less, depending on fabric.

My guess is Baromon. They were a lot more expensive than Chan when I was last (and first) there. Not worth it, IMO.

Baromon is actually a Shanghai export, having been established in Shanghai before the Communists in 1949. It used to be the best of the larger establishments.

Now, of course it is a state-owned entity with middling quality RTW goods although I have no idea about its MTM program.

[RWS]

Baromon is actually a Shanghai export, having been established in Shanghai before the Communists in 1949. It used to be the best of the larger establishments.

Now, of course it is a state-owned entity with middling quality RTW goods although I have no idea about its MTM program.

When I was in Shanghai on business a few years ago, I asked about Baromon. My very knowledgeable and comparatively refined Chinese counterpart told me that the Baromon in Shanghai was established simply to trade on the good name of the venerable firm which did indeed flee to Hong Kong in 1949. Until the inception of modified capitalism in the People's Republic, he said, the so-called Baromon of Shanghai made the best men's suits to be found in the entire country (no high praise from the land of shapeless Mao suits, I suppose, but still . . . ), clothing Chairman Mao himself and all the Party bosses.

The quality of the "custom-made" garments from the pretender today is perhaps better than run-of-the-mill tailors' shops in Hong Kong, but not by much. It certainly is much inferior to the little I've seen out of the true Baromon, now long settled in Hong Kong.

[DFR]

Ray

It is good to see someone taking such a mature interest in his clothese and suits especially so early. Congratulatiuons on having some well developped ideas.

It will be good to see the finished product but it would also be very intereresting to see front and rear views of you wearing the finished trousers but not the coat to see how SAM has handled the critical rise back and front. Can you do this please?


I have looked at Sams wen i HK but have not quite had the courage to use them preferring Chan or Yao. Sam has a lot of testimonials in his window but somehow I have always been suspicous. Did you find them willing to listen to what you want and the high level of detail - style, pockets etc or were they too oriented to tourists and a standard product?

[Mr. Rover]

Thank you for all the nice comments, gentlemen. Naturally, I am still learning through experience, and one rarely gets something done perfectly the first time. I would say the bane of the bespoke experience for me was the shortness of time. We were only in Hong Kong for 4 days,which only allowed enough time for two fittings. If i had had time for one or two more fittings, I'm sure it would've been quite perfect.
I would like to start by saying that this suit was mostly inspired by Bogart and the old Hollywood look. The look I tended to see were broader shoulders, pinched waists, and generous pants, so this is the silhouette I was going for in this suit.
Specifications I asked for were 6x2 DB suit with an unvented jacket, surgeon cuffs, and one lapel buttoniere hole (left lapel). I wanted English inverse pleated and cuffed pants with side straps, brace buttons, and no belt loops. Pretty standard overall. I had never worn pleats facing inward before, but I thought that it would be more flattering on my body figure, based on observation. I wanted something classic that could be worn anywhere- that made a statement without attracting too much attention to itself. Afterall, my fedoras probably do enough attention attracting as it is.

In my excitement of getting a bespoke suit, I forgot to mention a few things that I would've liked to have mentioned but had slipped my mind when I got there. I would've liked roped shoulders and split-back pants. I have other jackets with slightly roped shoulders, and they make my shoulders look broader without making me look like an American football player with padding. The arm scyes also seem too low in my opinion.
Overall, the jacket is well fit in the body, but the shoulders and arms left me a little disappointed. There is a little excessive use of padding in the shoulders- and they feel like pads and not wadding to me. I think I have become accustomed to a softer look, and this silhouette just seemed off to me. Easily remedied by balancing with a wide-brimmed fedora, however.
As I stated before, the arm scyes are cut like many RTW suits. They obviously used some sort of chart to get the arm hole measurements. I would've liked to have gotten an actual armhole measurement and smaller arm hole. This is a big problem with double-breasted suits, as it is technically supposed to be buttoned at all times, and if you're gesticulating with these lower arm scyes, the jacket is going to be moving alot more with you.
I also felt that the jacket itself and the sleeves could be a bit shorter. There is almost no linen showing at the ends. I'm not sure if this was an actual mistake or if the tailor was purposely cutting the suit a little bigger for me to grow into.
The pants are a different story. I had to fight for the extra 1/4" to get the waistband just above my navel, but I am very very satisfied. They fit well around my posterior and are very straight and full in the legs. They end about 1/4" above the heel of my shoe and have a nice break. The side straps are very useful after a big meal, even without the braces.
Being a fan of the Astaire look as well, and having a similar body shape to him, I think it would be wise if my next attempt at bespoke would be inspired by him with a slimmer, shorter jacket with more natural shoulders and high rise pants.
As I've only worn it the suit in the evening so far, I have yet to take any good daytime pictures, but as soon as I do, I'll post them! I understand that there is little visible detail in these photographs.


Thanks for following my long winded tale,
Ray

[TVD]

Well, Rover, congratulations on getting a head start. By the time you reach old age, you will need a second home to accommodate all your bespoke clothes.

I think the suit looks good, and your own comments show that you both appreciate its merits, but also know what to improve next time. This is not a question of a black and white, right or wrong, more one of personal taste and preference.

The one area where I would like to offer you advice is the choice of your tailor and the relationship you want to develop. Bespoke is not so much a matter of walking in and ordering a suit you want. That's RTW or MTM. In true bespoke, the communication between client and tailor is paramount. And this only develops with time. A management consultant would call it a learning curve. You need to decide what style you prefer, and who in your part of the world does it best, and whether personally you get on.

Once your tailor appreciates your style, and you respect and admire his skills, this relationship will add a new quality to your enjoyment of bespeaking and wearing your clothes. The longer it lasts, the better the results.

Persevere with your passion, and good luck!

[DFR]

Ray

Congratulations

This is an excellent start and the suit appears to be 'you'. The things you fought for such as the front rise are well worth the effort and a good lesson in the problems one can have edicating a tailor to do as he is bid.

I hope that you can get some daytime views both with and without the coat on so that we can appreciate your efforts fully.

Good luck with future ones - hopefully you nwill keep us posted onthese too.