Trouser braid type for black tie?

[couch]

I'm having the LL black mohair blend made up as a back tie ensemble. SB peak jacket, silk grosgrain facings, double vents. Trousers flat front. Waistcoat details still pending. My tailor "normally" uses a braid like this OFB braid for black tie:


Though he will also match the grosgrain facings if I request it, roughly like this::


I haven't found much discussion of this. What I have found seems to be that most older references (Debrett's, etiquette manuals pre-WWII, etc.) seem to refer to "braid" on both full dress (double) and dinner clothes (single). More recent references often use "stripe" instead of braid. I have late 30s or early 40s vintage evening dress with grosgrain facings (appears MTM rather than full bespoke, but handsome) that uses grosgrain (single!) for the trousers.

What are members' opinions (idiosyncratic ones welcome) on the pros and cons of each style for contemporary black-tie trousers? I started out with the assumption that grosgrain would be correct as maintaining continuity with the jacket (so clearly not mix-and-match pieces). But as I see similar braids used traditionally on military dress, I'm thinking braid might have deeper roots and the LL cloth is probably enough to unify the suit without matching the facings.

Thoughts?

[aston]

I've always gone for grosgrain to match the lapels, but "folded" and tucked under the trouser seam so that it "floats", if that makes sense?

[Concordia]

Proper braid was hard to find for quite a while, so a lot of people had to settle for grosgrain ribbon. Whether that makes it more or less attractive is up to you. Personally, I like the braid.

[Scot]

I have double braid on my current dinner suit trousers, but from what you say that is possibly a bit too formal.

I am also contemplating a new dinner suit for the warmer months and am interested in some of your other stylistic choices. Since my current barathea number is DB I was also thinking SB peak lapels, one button, but, perhaps more traditionally, without vents. Also, your choice of flat front trousers - with side adjusters, so not cut for braces??? Is the intention to create something with a more contemporary feel? I'm not sure this would be particularly flattering on me so I will probably go high-waisted double pleats. Will you wear with cummerbund or waistcoat (or neither)?

[Concordia]

Double braid-- as in two ribbons-- are normally for white tie. But a single row of some more elaborate braid should fit black tie well.

If your tailor makes DB comfortable, he should have no trouble making a SB without vents fit. High rise is best for the trousers in any case, and should allow switching between cummerbund and waistcoat as the mood strikes. Get a button inside the waist and an elastic loop on the cummerbund, to keep it from drifting away. Sam Hober does a nice version.

[couch]

Thanks for your thoughts, gents. Scot, yes, I'm thinking a slightly more contemporary look (more Daniel Craig in Casino Royale than Jeremy Irons in Brideshead). I'm slim, and while I have and like pleated trousers (both single and double forward pleats) as well as flat fronts, I think a cleaner line for black tie will work better on me. I initially thought single forward pleats, but especially with the slightly stiffer drape of the mohair, have opted for flat fronts. This is also informed by my experience with my suit in the first light/mid-gray LL mohair. The flat front trousers on that suit hang very well and keep their line better than my forward-pleated trousers when moving (which for lounge suits doesn't bother me). I am not a fan of cloth side adjusters, and especially for dinner clothes, where they would add fussy bulk at the waist. I will have DAKS tops (as on all my suits) which allow a slight tension on the waistband if desired, but I will also have inside brace buttons and wear white moire braces. The trouser rise is high but level, not fishtail in the rear. I will have a waistcoat made (still working on the shape) but retain the option for a cummerbund in warmer weather. Or, for a truly radical hot-weather alternative, this trouser style would allow me to eschew the waist covering and wear a fly-front shirt in overall textured cloth as Craig did. But my default choice will be a traditional pique bib shirt with studs.

Concordia, thanks for the pointer to Sam Hober for the cummerbund. I have some of David's ties but have not looked at the site for years. I'll check it out. I considered an unvented jacket, which I realize is more traditional, but double vents have also been "correct" for some decades now, and I like the freedom of movement they offer. I'm using Steed for this project, and Edwin's own dinner jacket has double vents!

[andy57]

Well, my two cents is that you should match the facings on your jacket for the seam covering on your trousers. Braid is best kept for white tie. And vents on a dinner jacket should be avoided, "correct" or not (actually not). I like and respect Edwin DeBoise, but his choice does not make it canonical. Vents are there because too many manufacturers use their day suit patterns. If you go with vents on your dinner jacket, you run the risk of having it assumed that you rented the rig. Also, the notion that there is less "freedom of movement" with a ventless jacket is specious.

[couch]

Thanks, Andy, Simon Cundey of Poole, who claim to have made the first dinner jacket, agrees with us both on double vents: "'It's not correct but we don't frown on it,' says Cundey." (in an interview in British GQ - where he also says midnight blue is "historically correct" but they will do black if requested). The Rake says: "Eveningwear has its origins in bygone times when men would spend much of their day amongst horses, and a change of clothing was essential so as not to bring the scent of their equine companions to the dining table of an evening. (This is why tuxedos should always be side-vented or ventless, as a centre vent suggests horsey pursuits.)" I'm confident this rationale is apocryphal—Brummell's evening coats and all modern full-dress coats derive from riding clothes and have a single vent—but I enjoy it. I don't rely on Edwin as an authority, just mention him as a respectable example of a now-common practice. I doubt anyone will mistake my dinner clothes for a rental. As for limited freedom of movement, I refer to two things, both of which are also drawbacks in all DB jackets for me (even though they are cut a bit shorter): first, the difficulty of placing the rear skirt so that it is not hopelessly creased in auditorium or car seats, where side vents make it easier to arrange things suitably; and access to on-seam trouser pockets without rucking up the jacket and displaying one's bum (or unbuttoning it at inappropriate times). No doubt in 1865 the Prince of Wales and his later followers at the Tuxedo Club did not have these concerns. Their opera boxes had proper open-back chairs*, their carriages were driven by others and their servants opened the door at home (no keys to carry). Of course these drawbacks are hardly fatal, but they influence my preferences. The braid-vs.-grosgrain-ribbon-on-the-trousers question is a true toss-up for me, but I've landed on braid, for better or worse, I think it much more likely that a rental "tux" would have the matching ribbon and facings than braid, if that were a concern. So the worst-case tradeoff is looking like I matched a new jacket with vintage thrift-store braided trousers, or looking like I'm wearing a rented rig. Somehow I think both are unlikely.

But I must conclude by saying that all your black-tie ensembles look very elegant, Andy!

*Of course at this time they would have worn full dress to the opera, or any formal dinner with ladies present, but the point remains with tails . . . .

[andy57]

As for limited freedom of movement, I refer to two things, both of which are also drawbacks in all DB jackets for me (even though they are cut a bit shorter): first, the difficulty of placing the rear skirt so that it is not hopelessly creased in auditorium or car seats, where side vents make it easier to arrange things suitably; and access to on-seam trouser pockets without rucking up the jacket and displaying one's bum (or unbuttoning it at inappropriate times).

I understand these concerns, but I have never experienced them. I'm sure your rig will be awesome!

[Noble Savage]

I like the OFB braid. Suppose you were to wear the trousers with an odd black tie jacket, velvet, or otherwise. It would still be a match.