Duke of Windor's shirt collar

[bond_and_beyond]

I've been perusing Getty Image's substantial collection of DoW photos, with a particular interest in his shirt collars (a topic discussed in this forum many times before).

I came across this photo which shows an example of his collar without part of it concealed by a coat.

It is quite moderate both in height and point lengths from what I can see. Collar back height maybe 1.5inches and collar points at no more than 3 inches (maybe even 2.5)?

What do you think?

BB

[alden]

BB

Looks great. (I would love a few meters of his shirting.)

It looks like he is wearing a wool or heavy silk tie, the knot is probably more substantial than it appears at this oblique angle, and there is a good deal of tie space, so the overall dimensions of the collar might a little bigger. But whatever the size of the collar what should earn our attention, above all else, is the perfect balance of the collar. Take it up in size or bring it down, according to your build, it will look understated and elegant for its balance.

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

Thanks Michael, good points as always.

I think the below photo shows the same shirt (same pattern) with a different tie and at different angle, Dimensions seem rather moderate, but quite a bit of tie space. Very elegant.



BB

[alden]

"He had that supreme elegance of being, quite simply, what he was."

This photo makes me think of the description of Proust. Elegance has little to do with clothes and everything to do with having the courage to be yourself.

This collar/tie combination is perfection for what you don't see. It dissolves into the overall image and is effortless and organic.

BB, an excellent demonstration indeed. Great photo. I had not seen that one.

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

Thanks Michael.

Found another angle of the photo in the first post that gives us a great look at both the fit of his shirt and his trousers. Interesting to see he uses a tab to hold the shirt in the trousers, I thought that was normally only used on dinner shirts.



BB

[couch]

This photo also highlights what a remarkably roomy cut the shirt has. The amount of front drape from the shoulders would be notable on a jacket, much less a shirt, and the waist is also quite billowy. There would be a lot of cloth to stuff in under a fitted waistcoat. I'm not sure I've seen photos of Windsor in tailored shirtsleeves earlier in his life. I wonder whether he always wore his shirts this full, or whether this might have been a shirt made when he was younger and carried more meat on his (always slim) frame. Even if the latter, it looks like a deliberate choice here . . . . Certainly, up to a point, more volume above the waist on a trim man, worn over trousers with a cleanly fitted waist and hips, accentuates the 'male V' impression. Beyond that point, the extra cloth suggests a diminished physique to a modern eye—though shirts were generally worn quite full, even voluminous, well into the 19th century.

[alden]

This photo also highlights what a remarkably roomy cut the shirt has. The amount of front drape from the shoulders would be notable on a jacket, much less a shirt, and the waist is also quite billowy. There would be a lot of cloth to stuff in under a fitted waistcoat. I'm not sure I've seen photos of Windsor in tailored shirtsleeves earlier in his life. I wonder whether he always wore his shirts this full, or whether this might have been a shirt made when he was younger and carried more meat on his (always slim) frame. Even if the latter, it looks like a deliberate choice here . . . . Certainly, up to a point, more volume above the waist on a trim man, worn over trousers with a cleanly fitted waist and hips, accentuates the 'male V' impression. Beyond that point, the extra cloth suggests a diminished physique to a modern eye—though shirts were generally worn quite full, even voluminous, well into the 19th century.

Windsor wore (Scholte's) drape suits almost exclusively. So he likely preferred comfortably cut shirts as well.

Comfort was Windsor's first objective and priority in dress. All the gadgets he had sewn into his clothes had enhanced comfort as their objective. He knew that comfort is an essential ingredient to elegance. And that particular Windsor brand of comfort and elegance comes through to this day in almost every photograph we see of him. He seems to be bent over in this photo. And his shirt a bit more blousy as a result.

I have always thought that adhesive shirts and especially tight collars were holdovers from the Spanish or some other Inquisition as they are genuinely effective instruments of torture and do little to flatter any physique. And going around in skin tight dress evidences only a diminished intellect to any modern or ancient eye. So make sure blood can circulate to your brain, keep in shape and be comfortable. She will admire all those things about you.

[davidhuh]

I have always thought that adhesive shirts and especialy tight collars were holdovers from the Spanish or some other Inquisition

[bond_and_beyond]

These kind of billowing shirts were par for the course in this era I thought? Here is Sean Connery at age 31 or 32 rocking the same look



BB

[L.deJong]

There is also the trend of not wearing a jacket over your dress shirt.
So a dress shirt now has to look sharp because it doesn't get covered by a jacket. Therefore it needs to be tighter and look less like a shirt and more like a jacket.
Shirt in itself already says it right?

I prefer my dress shirts a little 'oversized' to today's standard, but then again I like to wear something over them. If only a navy sweater. To make me look sharper.
But I also rock it without any 'coverage' and I do not think I look out of shape like so many magazines preach. I just feel comfortable.

[couch]

Gentlemen, please don't misunderstand me. I do not advocate "skin tight" or "adhesive" shirts and would never wear them. Regardless of recent "fashion." Of course Windsor wore Scholte drape jackets—and they always fit beautifully, with high armholes, a nipped waist, and trim skirt. I have no objection to the shirt pictured, but it is noticeably fuller in the body and waist than Connery's in FRWL. Neither are outside the normal range for the time; Windsor's strikes me as at the full end of the "gentlemen's cut" as the RTW makers used to call it. Since he could have his shirts cut any way he wished, I was merely interested in whether that particular shirt of his was typical of what he wore over most of his sartorial life (the collar is superb, as noted). And in how that degree of fullness might have related to trends through the century, and to earlier ones.

Over a decade ago in this forum I remarked on the changing relations of shirt fullness and close-fittedness of waistcoats and jackets (or doublets, coats, or frock coats) through history. I actually find some fullness (more than the minimum needed for comfortable movement) preferable, My observation was met with skepticism, shall we say. But I've come not to prefer significant vertical folds of cloth over the chest from the shoulders, or considerable extra cloth at the waist, when worn under a jacket—especially in warm weather. Like Windsor, I more often wear belts or DAKS-tabbed waists than braces, so too much cloth at the scye or tucked into the waistband works against comfort, in my experience.

I was recently watching again the 1984 film Swann in Love from Proust's Du côté de chez Swann / "Un Amour de Swann". In an early scene, Jeremy Irons as Charles Swann is being dressed by his valet in a gorgeous, pristinely pressed, but voluminous white linen shirt which will be worn with a very fitted waistcoat and frock coat—no Scholte drape there. It's just interesting to imagine how that combination, or the even more voluminous/fitted pairings in the Regency or Monte Cristo eras, would have felt to wear.

I'm not here to pass judgment, just to appreciate variety and understand nuance.

[bond_and_beyond]

Interesting discussions as always. I personally prefer a middle ground, but have my shirts cut fuller these days than when I started out (even though I've actually lost weight in the period).

On the topic of shirt collars, I'd like to throw out another favorite of mine: The collar on the shirts Pierce Brosnan wore as James Bond in The World Is Not Enough (shirts made by T&A). To me this is James Bond at his most elegant when it comes to his shirt.




BB

[alden]

On the topic of shirt collars, I'd like to throw out another favorite of mine: The collar on the shirts Pierce Brosnan wore as James Bond in The World Is Not Enough (shirts made by T&A). To me this is James Bond at his most elegant when it comes to his shirt.

BB, I agree the collar looks pretty good. It's the lack of sufficient tie space that dampens my enthusiasm. A knot with no where to go home to, suspended in mid air, when it is not squashed is such a sad thing to see (or wear.)

Give your knot a nice warm place to seat.

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

On the topic of shirt collars, I'd like to throw out another favorite of mine: The collar on the shirts Pierce Brosnan wore as James Bond in The World Is Not Enough (shirts made by T&A). To me this is James Bond at his most elegant when it comes to his shirt.

BB, I agree the collar looks pretty good. It's the lack of sufficient tie space that dampens my enthusiasm. A knot with no where to go home to, suspended in mid air, when it is not squashed is such a sad thing to see (or wear.)

Give your knot a nice warm place to seat.

Cheers

Interestingly the collar actually comes with a fair amount of tie space, but it seems Brosnan tightened his tie for each shot.

I had T&A pull out Brosnan's pattern and make me some shirts with this collar, which they did, and as you can see from the below photo, there is quite a bit of tie space there:



BB

[alden]

BB

Now you're talking. That collar looks good.