Monsieur's current issue

[alden]

I would like to think that David’s not posting the names of shirtmakers is out of deference to the LL.

Amassing lists of names is a comfort to some. I suggest that the real comfort however should come from the referencing of data that extends from the tactile, empirical world of personal experience. We don’t really want the marketing and publicity departments of magazines to dictate the direction of discourse on the LL. We would prefer to hear from member’s personal impressions and experience.

It is always acceptable to relate personal experiences one has had with artisans. Even comments based on mere visits are warranted. But publishing lists of unqualified entities (we are not even sure they are artisans) is another subject. It does feel uncomfortable.

Its a good subject to come to the fore. I do understand RWS and Manton. Their desire to have access to information is a good one. But we do want to keep a balance in the LL that favors experience. Manton's reports on tailors in New York are so effective because they derive from his own work, or his impressions. We find them interesting because we know Manton and have a good deal of indicators as to his taste and sensibility. Monsieur and most magazine reporters do not possess a nano of this kind of experience and sensibility. You can believe me because there have been a rush of comlaints about Monsieur reports from very knowledgable custom clothing enthusiasts. I had a earful of it this evening in fact!

The biggest challenge we have in keeping bespoke tailoring alive is one with marketing organizations who are skilled at blurring the definitions between all sorts of product types: bespoke hand made, part hand made/part MTM, full MTM and RTW.

The members of the LL attempt to provide a "shadow" voice to the millions spent in marketing. And if the members are sucessful there is a chance that many new coverts to Elegance will be the result of their efforts.

[rjman]

I would like to think that David’s not posting the names of shirtmakers is out of deference to the LL.

Amassing lists of names is a comfort to some. I suggest that the real comfort however should come from the referencing of data that extends from the tactile, empirical world of personal experience. We don’t really want the marketing and publicity departments of magazines to dictate the direction of discourse on the LL. We would prefer to hear from member’s personal impressions and experience.

In which case, this entire thread is pointless.

[Guest]

1) Actually Manton, you are wrong, not all my questions are answered and I have thanked people for responding many, many times.

2) You really have no idea how busy I am or what is going on on my side of cyberspace. I was not aware that scanning or copying my Monsieur magazine, which I have not even finished reading, was an "emergency. " I have provided a link multiple times to enable people to order their own Monsieur issues or subscribe. Your wining is cheeky in the extreme and most inappropriate to the Lounge. I am sorry Michael, I did not provide the list simply because I have not had the time to figure out how to provide it. It is several pages long and very large.

3) Though I lack Alden's detailed knowledge, that Monsieur's recommendations and journalism are deeply flawed is obvious. Some of its profiles are thinly disguised advertisements, or at least plums given to important advertisers (Liste Rouge and Duret leather are two that come to mind). Nevertheless, a magazine that lists bespoke shirtmakers after it attempted to catalogue all the bespoke tailors in France, and then does a feature on bespoke Vienna with Knize prominently discussed, is obviously of interest and enjoyable.

[manton]

You apparently have enough time to post question after question, including detailed follow-ups. Yet when a fellow member asks for a short list of names (how long can it be?) you try to hide beyond the false notion that you are being asked to scan an entire magazine, and then claim to be too busy. The precious time you spent typing your snotty reply to me might have been better spent responding to RWS's entirely reasonable request.

I am sorry that not every single question you have posted on the Lounge has been answered. Perhaps they are too specialized even for us. But you should be grateful that so many of your demands for information have been met. And that gratitude really ought to manifest itself into a willingness to give back to the club in some small way.

[rjman]

my Monsieur magazine, which I have not even finished reading

Let us know which bathroom it's in at Chateau Bresch and we'll come pick it up.

On a more serious note, it struck me that "Silhouette" would be a great title for an elegant style magazine worthy of the Lounge.

Gentlemen, let us confine our wining to chez Cuffthis.

[Guest]

Wait a second RJMan: how did you know I keep it near the bathroom? Some one is peeking!

[RWS]

. . . . t struck me that "Silhouette" would be a great title for an elegant style magazine worthy of the Lounge. . . .

That is striking! Inspired by Manton's working title for his eagerly awaited treatise, I'd suggest The Dandy as worth consideration, too.

[uppercase]

Yes, I have to agree with Manton that giving back to the LL is very important.

We're generally very lucky here in LL to have some members who voluntariily give enormous amounts of time, effort, advice and thought to their posts and the benefit is really immeasurable.

These people, you can just feel it, are very serious and one can only surmise they do this because of their passion for the subject and the respect they accord other members.

Believe me, you can't buy this kind of advice and information. Here, on LL, it's free.

So don't take advantage, and do contribute. And do be a bit appreciative, and add value where you can.

[rjman]

. . . . t struck me that "Silhouette" would be a great title for an elegant style magazine worthy of the Lounge. . . .

That is striking! Inspired by Manton's working title for his eagerly awaited treatise, I'd suggest The Dandy as worth consideration, too.

One possible issue is confusion with the French magazine Dandy, also part of the Bresch's style library I believe. Come on David, please share -- don't be a playa hata.

[Guest]

I think Michael has already suggested that I should NOT post the bespoke shirts article. If you want to see the article, pm me with your private email and when I get a chance to figure out how to scan the oversized article that is much larger than my scanner, I will send the scanned article to those who expressed interest.

I agree that many people have been generous with information. But I have never held back any information I did have. In this case, if I could just hand you the article i would. But other obligations come first.

Plus, nothing stops you from subscribing to Monsieur and/or Dandy yourselves. You can use credit card for Monsieur, Dandy requires a bank transfer.

[RWS]

. . . . [W]hen I get a chance to figure out how to scan the oversized article that is much larger than my scanner, I will send the scanned article to those who expressed interest. . . .

As I've publicly expressed interest, now three times, I'll not trouble you with a private message, David. Why don't you post in this thread once you've taken time to learn how to transmit the scanned article? I'm certain that many of us would appreciate you're doing so and would send you PMs then.

[manton]

Plus, nothing stops you from subscribing to Monsieur and/or Dandy yourselves. You can use credit card for Monsieur, Dandy requires a bank transfer.

How very helpful. Why didn't we think of that before?

I certainly have learned my lesson. Never ask Bresch to type names from a list. He is too busy. Too busy even to be polite.

[dopey]

In mid-October, RWS began a thread titled "Elusive French Shirtmaker" with these words: " This is a plea for help." You may recall that he was trying to track down the website of a French shirtmaker on whose site he saw a photo of a shirt he wanted to use to show to his own shirtmaker. Alas, not knowing of any French shirtmakers, I was unable to help him. As of early December, the last post in that thread, neither was anyone else. (That thread is here: http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/vie ... php?t=5134 )

Now, it appears that you, David, have through your reading uncovered a discussion of Parisian shirtmakers that might be just what RWS needs to help him find what he has long been asking about. That is a great resource, and It is not surprising that he asked for a list of the makers discussed in the article you found.

Edit: This appears to have been resolved and RWS is now on his way. Remainder deleted.

[le.gentleman]

I would also be very interested in the list! As I am a student I cannot afford to spend 60 € on an abonnement altough I am only interested in a list of shitmakers. I really appreciate that you try to send us the whole article, but with regards to copyright reasons (I do not want to start a new discussion about that theme) a short list would do.

Thank you in advance,

Raphael

[rjman]

Gentlemen:

As the rare wild Bresch, timid like his cousins the eland and the kudu, has thus far shied away from sharing the list of shirtmakers in Monsieur with the Lounge, allow me the temerity so to do. As Michael (Alden) wrote above, we should depend on members' personal experiences rather than the intelligence-insulting PR which passes for most men's style articles. However, perhaps this list may provoke a member to walk by a new window and/or share experiences supporting or debunking the list with us. Certainly I am not going to try Liste Rouge or Loro Piana for bespoke shirts just because they are mentioned here -- to saynothing of LVMH whipping boy Thomas Pink.

The shirtmakers are:
Loro Piana (av Montaigne)
Liste Rouge (rue du FSH), www.listerouge.fr
Thomas Pink (av Francois 1er)
Samson (rue de Tournon) -- computerized digiscan measurements gimmick, implied machine make; www.samson-paris.com
Patrice Halary (av Victor Hugo)
Michel Korn chez Arnys (550 euros!)
Brioni (from the description it sounds more like a made-to-order service)
Charles Demagne (rue la Boetie) www.mesure-demagne.com
Charvet (on connait la chanson)
Courtot (rue de Rennes)
Egle Bespoke (rue de Mont-Thabor)
Ermenegildo Zegna
Finamore (at Theo Fil, rue de Rivoli)
Francesco Smalto (600 euros!!!!!) (rue Francois 1er) www.smalto.com
Givenchy
Hermes (460 euros) -- apparently facilitated by Hermes' 1991 purchase of the Gaillet shirtmaking house)
JLR (plastic buttons in <<nacril>>) www.jlrparis.com
Johann www.johann.fr -- machine-made and laser-cut
Lagonda (rue Benjamin Franklin) --
Lanvin (539 euros)
Mangas (rue Vivienne) www.mangas.fr -- plastic buttons, emphasis on budget
Old England (150 euros) -- I'm surprised that they're not offering Turnbull & Asser as they sell it there; perhaps Richemont is having Hackett's 3rd world tailors do it.
Olden (rue St Honore) -- this seems to be a serious shirtmaking house with a very wide cloth selection
Peter Tailor Club (rue de Teheran -- hey, round the corner from where I'm staying) www.petertailor.com -- another internet shirtmaker like Liste Rouge
Rubinski (rue du Bocador) www.rubinski.com
Tailormail (rue St-Anne) www.tailormail.com
Valmary (Le Cayrat Haut, TREBES) www.valmary.com
Van Laack (at Madelios)
Zilli (rue Francois 1er) (850 euros)

No Marc Lauwers at Dunhill, no Hildeetch. Hm.

They're rather approving of Pink, which is yet another caveat to any emptors inspired by this list.

Manton, this one's for you.