Bespoke shirts: the Details

[bry2000]

In advance of ordering bespoke shirts, I am interested in developing a checklist of details and items of consideration, ranging from choices of fabric, types of collar and cuff interlinings, and other stylistic details. I will try to search for some of Kabbaz' longer posts on AAAC to get up to speed more quickly.

Here are some things that I can think of:

1) pattern matching on the shoulder and gauntlet;
2) side gussets
3) horizontal buttonhole on the sleeve plaquet (why must it be horizontal?)
4) yoke (split or not)?
5) spread collar with zero tie space
6) side pleats or plain back
7) MOP buttons
regular tail or square off as with Charvet shirts
9) stitching on the collar
10) what does havinng shanked buttons mean?
11) back of collar height
12) interlining of collar and cuffs
13) cuff height

Are there any other stylistic items that one should consider?

I am also particularly interested in learning more about interlining options for the collars and cuffs.

Thank you.

[MildlyConsumptiv]

10) I believe "shanked" refers to having the buttons sewn onto the shirt on a "stem" of thread, like the buttons on a suit jacket, as opposed to simply being sewn onto the shirt so they lie flush. I think shanking leaves the button more securely attached and easier to button.

[TVD]

You need to be careful with the above. There are things that simply are required, and others that are a matter of taste or preference.

Obviously the cut must fit. Bu some prefer things looser, some more fitted. Making you look good is an art, not a science. However, you should not mix up cut and workmanship. Details like tiespace, shape of the collar, split yoke, plackets, gussets, shirring, all this really falls into the domain of taste and preference, not quality.

There are a number of details that really are a must: good cloth, solid mother of pearl buttons (although neither the wafer thin variety, nor those high fashion items which are thicker than wide float my boat - some moderation is appropriate), hand sown and shanked, please (there really is no excuse for machine stitched buttons on GBP250 shirts, but most London makers think otherwise), hand stitched buttonholes (the machine made ones will always look untidy after a few washes), neat & small stitches (whether machine or hand), matched stripes (where this is possible - some shirred cuts do not permit matching). I know that Alexander Kabbaz does offer some fusing of the interlining. From his description he knows exactly when it is appropriate, and where it is to be avoided as harmful . As the absolute majority of makers has no clue and only resorts to fusing as a cost cutting measure, I would avoid it like the bubonic plague. No fabric edge should be visible, all stitching should be neat, smooth and devoid of bulk (that double lockstitch on the rear of some RTW plackets is just dreadful - a cheap way of getting the stripes to match on the front).

Overall, there is no right or wrong. The issue is whether it is functional and beautiful. Everything else is down to your choice.

[Cantabrigian]

I think TVD hit the nail on the head. Rather than relying on a pre-existing list. take advantage of the fact that this is bespoke. As you go throughout the day think about your current shirts and what you would like to change - almost certainly the fit. Probably the collar and cuff style (at least a little bit).

I am waiting on some shirts that have a cuff based on a design I cut out on a piece of paper to show my shirtmaker.

For instance, you may decide that you prefer not to have a gauntlet button at all (a horizontal buttonhole requires more care in lining up the button).

Please do let us know how this turns out. And who will you be using?

[RWS]

. . . I am interested in developing a checklist of details and items of consideration, ranging from choices of fabric, types of collar and cuff interlinings, and other stylistic details. . . .

Once you complete the list, Bry, please publish it in the Lounge; it would be useful to many of us.

[manton]

1) pattern matching on the shoulder and gauntlet;

Essential.

2) side gussets

Nice, but unecessary if the sewing is good.

3) horizontal buttonhole on the sleeve plaquet (why must it be horizontal?)

A) Easier to button and unbutton; B) matches the direction of the cuff buttonhole; C) keeps the gauntlet from sliding back and forth along the buttonhole, thus properly closed.

4) yoke (split or not)?

Split. Most bespoke shirtmakers will do this as a matter of course, whether your body really needs it or not. One nice thing: with stripes and checks, the yoke can be "chevroned" which effects that attractive angle pattern in the yoke. I like that.

5) spread collar with zero tie space

Personal preference. I prefer no tie space. But if you like really large tie knots. you might want a little.

6) side pleats or plain back

This is both a matter of fit and the preference of the shirtmaker. I have had shirtmakers tell me that I absolutely need side pleats, and others tell me they are uncessary for my build. I let them do what they want. I do gather that it is harder to make a shirt with no pleats in back if the client has a muscular upper body or "salient blades." But it can be done. If you do get pleats, remember that like any pleats they should remain closed when not under stress. Check that at the first fitting.

7) MOP buttons

Essential. Nice big thick ones, with rounded edges and convex underside.

regular tail or square off as with Charvet shirts

Personal preference.

9) stitching on the collar

The standard is a quarter inch from the collar edge (same for the cuffs). Edge stitching most often looks flashy. I only like Kabbaz's version.

10) what does havinng shanked buttons mean?

A short stem of thread separates the button from the placket. No shank means that the button is sewn on flush to the placket. These are harder to button and unbutton, and also cause the plackets to pull and the buttonholes to gape.

11) back of collar height

Totally depends on how you are built. Higher is better, but your neck length determines how high.

12) interlining of collar and cuffs

Soft for cuffs, stiffer and (perhaps) fused for collars. No fusing on cuffs. Not for me, anyway.

13) cuff height

Depends on your build and personal preference. The bigger you are, the bigger they should be. I get mine fairly wide (meaning from top to bottom) because I like the look.

Are there any other stylistic items that one should consider?

Pocket or no? (I prefer no). French front or two plackets? Armhole height? Closeness to the body? Length of collar points? Degree of spread? Shape of collar leaf? Length of shirt body? Monogram?

[alden]

FIT: I think the novice trips himself up when first ordering a bespoke shirt by concentrating too much on styling and not enough on fit. If you have experience in working with a tailor to create a suit of clothes that fits, then transfer the information you have from this experience to the shirtmaker. If you have salient shoulder blades that required more cloth over your shoulders to achieve proper fit in your suit, you will need the same in your shirt. If you have a shirt that bunches up at the back of the neck and kicks out in back because of improper fit due to your blades, it will create wrinkles in your suit’s jacket that ruin all your tailors’ meticulous work. So the things you did to make your suit jacket fit must be mirrored in the shirt to create a harmonious image.

As regards tie space, I don’t own a shirt that does not have a good measure of it. The reason has less to do with the size of the knot you wish to fold as it does about the softness of the knot you want to create. If you have no tie space, you almost necessarily have to have a tight knot to keep your tie in place. The wings of the collar push down on the knot and force it away from and off the collar. This is uncomfortable.

If you have sufficient tie space, the knot can seed into the collar easily. You don’t have to cinch it down and it can remain soft and natural. It does wonders for your temperament if you are not choking or fidgeting to tighten your tie all the time.

The proper use of tie space is something I learned in Naples where 1.5 to 3 cms is the norm. If that doesn’t convince you then look at the pictures of the Duke of Windsor’s collars and you will undoubtedly find the source of the Neapolitan’s inspiration.

[uppercase]

Well, maybe it is that needed tie space which can solve my perennial problem of drooping, hanging tie knot. Currently lacking of most of my collars.

Absolutely, the wings seem to be a culprit, in a collar with no tie space , pushing the tie knot downward, necessitating regular cinching up of the knot and an increasingly tighter and tighter choking knot as the day progresses.

Wonderful idea those Neopolitans have about a good 3cm tie space.

[TVD]

I fear nothing can be seen in isolation on collars. I personally like them stiff, high, and somewhat raffishly cut away with the ends lying very close to the collar band. If you do not allow for sufficient tie space, the tie will push the ends away from the collar band and they will stick out.

[RWS]

. . . . If you do not allow for sufficient tie space, the tie will push the ends away from the collar band and they will stick out.

Collar wings aspiring to evening-shirt status most bother me. I'd prefer as little tie space as possible but abhor wings of a fold-down collar lifting off the shirt. Would that we had a mathematical formula to determine that minimum! Lacking it, I have my shirts cut with about 1 or 1.5 cms. between the bases of the wings on a buttoned shirt.

[isakuhyogo]

Such a concise thread. Excelent!
What is the BKM on shirt back darts ?

[Aristide]

Thank you for reviving this thread. Most informative......

[andy57]

Such a concise thread. Excelent!
What is the BKM on shirt back darts ?

I don't know what "BKM" means, but a well-made, properly fitting shirt should not have or require darts on the back of the shirt or anywhere else.

[ks]

Other possible modifications.

• If you will wear your shirt casually without a tie at times, the distance from the second button to the collar. Too much distance and you will look like Magnum PI when you wear with the top button unbuttoned. Too little, and it looks…off. Once you've established that distance, your tailor will spread out the other buttonholes accordingly. With a V-neck undershirt please. If you have chest hair coming out, you really will be Magnum PI!
• You could have the bottom-most button hold done in green or some other color thread (since it will be tucked into your pants and never seen – it’s a little secret between you and your dry cleaner).
• Different color fabric under the collar or inside the cuff – but so many off-the-rack shirts do this now that you may seem more Jersey Shores than bespoke. But again, it’s under the same principle that if you wear the shirt correctly, no one should know that you’ve modified it like this.
• How do you want the collar to meet above the tie. Does the collar meet and from an upside down “V” above the tie or is there space between the two sides of the collar. But maybe that is what is meant by zero tie space in the comments above…?
• No breast pocket -- all off-the-rack shirts have breast pockets. And since you're never putting anything in this pocket, don't have one in the first place
• Monograms (please put on the tail and in a light color like yellow so again it’s not viewable when worn correctly and please never on the cuff and since you don't have a breast pocket, you can't put in on or above that pocket!)

But these are sort of fun suggestions rather than having to do with fit and function. But as others have said, part of the fun of bespoke...is the fun!

[andy57]

Other possible modifications.

• If you will wear your shirt casually without a tie at times, the distance from the second button to the collar. Too much distance and you will look like Magnum PI when you wear with the top button unbuttoned. Too little, and it looks…off. Once you've established that distance, your tailor will spread out the other buttonholes accordingly. With a V-neck undershirt please. If you have chest hair coming out, you really will be Magnum PI!
• You could have the bottom-most button hold done in green or some other color thread (since it will be tucked into your pants and never seen – it’s a little secret between you and your dry cleaner).
• Different color fabric under the collar or inside the cuff – but so many off-the-rack shirts do this now that you may seem more Jersey Shores than bespoke. But again, it’s under the same principle that if you wear the shirt correctly, no one should know that you’ve modified it like this.
• How do you want the collar to meet above the tie. Does the collar meet and from an upside down “V” above the tie or is there space between the two sides of the collar. But maybe that is what is meant by zero tie space in the comments above…?
• No breast pocket -- all off-the-rack shirts have breast pockets. And since you're never putting anything in this pocket, don't have one in the first place
• Monograms (please put on the tail and in a light color like yellow so again it’s not viewable when worn correctly and please never on the cuff and since you don't have a breast pocket, you can't put in on or above that pocket!)

But these are sort of fun suggestions rather than having to do with fit and function. But as others have said, part of the fun of bespoke...is the fun!

I'm sorry, but I think these are all rather poor suggestions.