Trousers

[alden]

Frank, exactly. Quite a few guys on the LL will know this because they saw me at the tailors give my new trousers a good workout: raise the knee to the chest, five or six deep knee bends, touch your toes, a brisk walk upstairs downstairs, a little two step (not Astaire-like)... They had to move with me in every circumstance AND look spiffy.

And the trousers had to match the volume and general style of my jackets. 007's clothes are in perfect balance top to bottom, nothing exaggerated, nothing precious, studied or dainty about him.

Cheers

[old henry]

Can you imagine Sean Connery in one of those "precious" little short jackets the children wear today ?

[alden]

Can you imagine Sean Connery in one of those "precious" little short jackets the children wear today ?

No, but neither Sean Connery, nor anyone from our generation is targeted by SR these days. All the houses want to bring in the 30-35 year old clients who will fund their retirements. And these 30-35 years olds are totally mesmerized by Fashion, marketing and peer political pressure in a way that we simply cannot imagine. And so SR houses have had to conform as well, inventing models that mimic the trends of fashion. So we have ultra short coats and painted on trousers, the "pixie" look-antidote to "toxic masculinity."

Cheers

[couch]

Frans's C&M trousers are indeed impressive seen in profile at the tailors, prior to a day's wearing. They are so form-fitting that they could not be any slimmer and still accommodate front/rear creases. With such close shaping and small cuff opening at the shoe, I suspect they would be hard-pressed to retain creases in most cloths, and Hristov's pair illustrates this (by resting on the shoe the weight breaks the line--possibly David's suggestion of braces would help). Thus Michael's invocation of jeans is apt since they are generally worn without creases. Frans's are also 20-ounce cavalry twill, a cloth with intrinsic weight and elastic properties that (as for riding breeches) are more forgiving of a close cut.

But I agree that the pattern is really aiming for an early 19th-century (Regency-1850s) line. (The linked article has a good illustrated history of pantaloon and trouser evolution from before Brummell's time to early Victorian times). Modern trousers like Frans's have side pockets, and I suspect pleats are almost a necessity in such a trim cut to prevent the pocket from pulling open—but there is not enough fullness in the thigh for the pleats to hang straight like Windsor's:

or even Connery's, without hands in pockets.

The current fashion for very narrow cuffs worn with shoes with extended toes looks clownish (or vaguely medieval: think pattens) on most men, and certainly on men like myself with long narrow feet to begin with. I order my cuffs a bit wider than some to avoid accentuating my long feet, while still allowing a slight taper from the seat, as Michael advocates. A slight amount of S-shaping is useful to counteract the tendency to stretch at the knee, but not essential. The crucial thing if you want a good line is for the trouser to be properly shaped from waist to seat, with adequate rise and thigh room, so that the weight of the cloth falls cleanly from the widest part of the seat and doesn't pull in or bag below the seat, and with enough fullness over the fork (with dart or pleat if needed) that it doesn't strain the pockets or make excessive "cat's whiskers," as the jeans aficionados say.

In other words, it's gravity that gives the trousers clean (creased) lines, and if the trousers are clinging at any point to the leg or impeded by the shoe, gravity will not have free play. The great art is to allow that free play while conforming as closely as possible to the individual's figuration. I'm sure Frank could teach us all a lot about that.

[alden]

In other words, it's gravity that gives the trousers clean (creased) lines, and if the trousers are clinging at any point to the leg or impeded by the shoe, gravity will not have free play. The great art is to allow that free play while conforming as closely as possible to the individual's figuration.

Couch

I would only make the following change: "The great art is to allow that free play while conforming in the most aesthetically pleasing way possible to the individual's figuration." Everyone's figuration being different, an individual solution to a figuration is required. But that presupposes the availability of individual judgement and individual style, the foundation of bench tailoring after all. A great tailor, in the past, did not make clothes in strict conformity to a figuration, he made the clothes that made whatever figuration brilliant. Brilliant, not conforming to any edict or fashion...BRILLIANT.

Cheers

[couch]

Agreed, Michael. Well said.

[old henry]

The key is balance. A balanced pattern. Each individual has a different balance. And the tailor must adjust the block pattern or drafted pattern to balance the individual form. It's is then that gravity can do what it does. It's called drape. Same as with a coat. Balance. Can't have elegance if the front is short.

[alden]

really aiming for an early 19th-century (Regency-1850s) line.

The last great proponent for the rebirth of the pantaloon was Hardy Amies, whose designs, precursors of the current Pixie style, he himself never wore. His trousers are invariably full.

Hardy-Amies-relaxing-in-the-garden-1 by The London Lounge, on Flickr

And the Conduit Cut of Sinclair offered slim lines in the 60s as well; and yet taken in the context of todays style they look very full as well.

Women's pants versus Men's trousers:

gf-3pc-buttoned by The London Lounge, on Flickr

I know this will be counter intuitive for many of you, but I heartily suggest you avoid wearing women's clothing if your aim is to appear masculine.

Pure British Masculinity

bond by The London Lounge, on Flickr

bond by The London Lounge, on Flickr

The latest from the London Fashion Week is a very different look, and once again this design is being criticized for its overly ample trousers. The idea of boxers worn with braces over the trousers sets a new standard in Pixie style that will find few rivals:

images by The London Lounge, on Flickr



(Guys, beg, borrow or steal, but get yourselves a proper (man's) trouser pattern before you do anything else!)

Cheers

[soren]

I have also seen a lot of mediocre trousers from otherwise excellent Italian tailors. This is maybe partly because a lot of Italian tailors outsource the trousers and concentrate on the jackets.

Have you considered trying a trouser tailor in Napoli? I’m using Marco Cerrato for all my trousers (and shorts!) nowadays, because not only is he a great guy with a lovely family, but he also makes a fantastic cut, and the trousers are finished to the highest standards possible.

Best,
Søren

[alden]

So we have seen in these few posts that there are real challenges to fitting, crafting and wearing trousers.

Let's start with pleats. I think it is abundantly clear now that pleats need to be used on certain style and cuts of trousers and are better left off others. Slim sporting trousers with frog pockets are a delight to wear. I have six pair made by Antonio Ambrosi in corduroy that are in constant rotation after nearly 15 years now. But they do not have pleats!

Here are a few tips about pleats and pleated trousers. David pointed one thing out to you here:

Most important: wear braces please. They keep your trousers sitting where they should.

Yes, pleated trousers drape best when they are suspended. The jacket drapes from the neck point and shoulders. Trousers drape from the waist if the design and fit, especially the waist measure, is spot on. If not, you will need a brace, a point from which they drape.

If pleated trousers have been made properly, there are a few reasons why they will tend to open. I say crafted properly because pleats on ill conceived garments will not stay open. A low shoulder, for example, will also create a low point at the waist that needs to be addressed, and if it is not done, the pleat on the low side will open etc.
But lets assume the trousers have been made correctly. Pleats will open, as Couch pointed out, if the style of the trouser does not facilitate drape ie too tight, adhesive trousers. But pleats, and we all know this, will also open if the waist measure is either too small or too large. I say we all know this because for many of us the waist measure fluctuates, for example, after the New Years festivities. How many of you have made the New Years resolution to get your pleats closing again?

If, on the other hand your trousers are too big, braces will give them a lovely drape in an instant. And herein lies a good tip. I always have my pleated trousers cut 1.5-2 cms too large in the waist. They look great and are so comfortable to wear with braces when I am slimmer. And if I gain some weight, they still fit well.

So choose the style of trouser to use pleats on, make sure the trousers are made correctly, have them cut on the large side and use braces.

Cheers

[Frans]

...for many of us the waist measure fluctuates, for example, after the New Years festivities. How many of you have made the New Years resolution to get your pleats closing again?

And yes, Alden you are right about an ideal fit for Pussy Galore

Forgive me Hristo, david, couch, Frank et al. for being imprecise. That's not my pair of trousers on the previous page, that was tailored for a slim male model to participate in a show indeed

However, an almost identical pair was made for me shortly after. They're sports trousers intended to go with their long jackets.
Suit trousers by Chittleborough and Morgan are more full, but still S-shaped and tapered at the ankle.

Couch, you are right about the shape and its historical reference to the Regency period. That is precisely what I meant when I wrote "British", i.e. in comparison to rather short, low waisted, drain piped Neapolitan pairs.
I wrote "masculine" because the trousers are high waisted and supposed to go with the very structured sports jackets by C& M. They have an outspoken house style, that not everyone will like. But they're very passionate about what they're doing, hence their attention to trousers.

Hristo, any issue should be discussed with them, they'll be happy to solve it. Apart from that, I agree with Alden's and davidhuh's comment's. Treat your trousers like a good girl friend with some brushing & hugging every evening
Put it on the ironing board the way you see in the instagram posting. Next time you're in London let him show you how they iron their trousers, especially around the knee with some stretching & shrinking.

For your reference here are some pics of my pair of the same cloth/model shown on previous page. They're taken with a cell phone in an angled position and from above, but hopefully you'll get an idea. I have the same model in an 8 oz cloth that needs more ironing, but keeps its shape fairly well.

[alden]

HI Frans

I am glad we can agree on the relative merits of Pussy Galore.

OK, from this angle, your trousers look better to me. Is the bunching and waviness in the top half due to your lifting to take the picture or is it always there? It tells me, as I suspected, that you need more room in the top....just a bit. Is the waist measure right on, or a little small (after the Holidays. )

And how does the rise feel to you?

The thigh and legs look better too, though I would like to see more fullness. They will still be a nice slim cut in the Conduit Cut mode. But they will drape better and be free of all the tangles and waves. And a larger cuff, will mitigate the length of your shoe. We see too much shoe right now. What do you wear 10-11UK? What is the measure at the cuff...looks like 17 cms. If so, you need 20-22 cms. I wear 11UK and the smallest I can go is 21 cms-22cms.

Thanks for posting these pics, nice work.

Cheers

[old henry]

Franz, those trousers would be better without pleats. If you want them tapered like that the line would be much better without pleats. You can have very handsome, comfortable pants without pleats The pleats open at the seat line. With pleats the hips have too much volume for the tapered leg. It doesn't look right. Tapered=no pleats.

[alden]

Franz, those trousers would be better without pleats. If you want them tapered like that the line would be much better without pleats. You can have very handsome, comfortable pants without pleats The pleats open at the seat line. With pleats the hips have too much volume for the tapered leg. It doesn't look right. Tapered=no pleats.

Frank I agree. This pair , cut as they are, would look great with no pleats and frog pockets.

As regards, non pleated trousers in general, I am posting here the illustration you put up on Tailors and Tailoring

26993509_10211193613257246_5726634736014952250_n by The London Lounge, on Flickr

These pair look great as dress trousers in the Conduit Cut, 007 mode.

Guys, take these illustrations to your tailor and ask they be made....I am going to.

Cheers

[old henry]

Yes Michael. You can see the center illustration is dressed left. Also in the sean Connery photo just above he is dressed left. A very important thing to know is that trousers that fit nicely in the crotch act like a high armhole. Freedom of movement. If the crotch hangs too low it restricts movement. Like a low armhole. It pulls the whole leg. This is why tailors used to "Dress" your trouser to one side. When you sit or walk your nuts nestle comfortably to one side into the added cloth. And it also keeps the pleats happy. Take a bit off one side and add to the other to pull the crotch of the pant to one Side or the other depending to which side your nuts hang. So that when you move.. the crotch seam will go comfortably up the side of your nuts. Think high armhole. All tailors used to ask,"to which side do you dress,Sir ?"
ps. The draft for the photo above is in The Blue Book.