Ready for Bespoke Shirts

[Mark Seitelman]

Whitaker, why settle on one bespoke maker? Each one brings his own "magic" to the proceedings.

Turnbull has been much maligned on the other fora. I have found it to be relilable and honest. (E.g., they charge you for the sample shirt, and when your final order is completed the balance is charged.) Were you fitted by Steve Quinn who holds the warrant for Prince Charles? Incidentally, he is not a shirt cutter although his predecessor (and father-in-law), Paul Cuss, was a cutter.

[whittaker]

Whitaker, why settle on one bespoke maker? Each one brings his own "magic" to the proceedings.

A very good point. I'm keen to develop some consistency in the fit of shirts but you are right. There is no reason not to cultivate a few makers to take advantage of varied strengths.

Were you fitted by Steve Quinn who holds the warrant for Prince Charles?

No. I don't believe so but you make me realise I didn't even ask the "fitter's" name. An oversight I attribute to my sense of wonder and excitement at being fitted for my first order of bespoke shirts. I shall find out when I take the test shirt back next week.

[Collarmelton]

How does Cego rate with respect to Paris or Geneva?

[manton]

CEGO does not cut or make shirts. All the stuff is sent out. That doens't make it bad, per se, and Carl is honest about it. But Paris and Geneva offer a higher level of service and (I think) quality. Shirts from those firms are cut and made on the premises. (Some CEGO shirts are actually made by Paris.)

[Mark Seitelman]

According to my recollection of Carl's postings and a conversation with him, Cego has some shirts made by Gambert of NJ, and he used to have some shirts made by Paris. However, I recall that he stated that he uses some independent shirtmakers in his building. In other words, these shirts are not made by either Paris or Geneva. My impression is that he could pretty much make a bespoke shirt with these independents, but I would check with him.

[Mark Seitelman]

I communicated with Carl from Cego, and he related the following:

He has two offerings.

The first is MTM by one of the Gambert factories in NJ. He says that its computer program allows him to get a good fit. However, there is no stripe matching at either the shoulder or gauntlet. I would assume that stripes are matched on the front placket and pocket since that is an industry standard.

Cego's other line is bespoke made by five shirtmakers. (I am not sure if they are under his sole employment or if they are independent outworkers in the Kingley Street manner.) They are located off the premises. On these there is an individual paper pattern and matching of stripes. A first, sample shirt is made so that changes can be made before the rest of the order proceeds.

I have worn the Gambert shirt, produced by others, and it is a good, hardwearing shirt. I am not sure if his Gambert shirts are made solely from Gambert's cloth selection or if you can buy Cego's cloth.

His number is 212-620-4512.

[Mark Seitelman]

A footnote to my last comments.

Cego can have Gambert make a MTM shirt from Cego's fabrics.

[bry2000]

Thank you to everyone for the very thoughtful responses. I think if I go with a NY maker, I will likely give Paris a try and see how things go. Once I have a pattern down, I can experiment with other makers in the future.

I have not had time to sort out the London market. It seems as if the London makers offer a fairly standardized product and a big consideration is personal rapport with the maker; ie, will the maker offer to redo the first shirt if there is a problem or will he just make superficial adjustments with promises of a better fit on the subsequent shirts. It seems among the commonly mentioned names -- Budd, Dege, Sean O'Flynn, et al -- the maker will take measurements and do the cutting. The production will be handled off site, probably by the same sewers or machinists (I don't know what they are called). London shirtmakers don't seem to use any handwork on their shirts -- they are all machine stitched as are the buttonholes. I have never really understood the necessity or point of having handsewn buttonholes on an shirt. What am I missing? Besides getting my pattern down expertly, I am interested in a shirtmaker who can take the time and have the interest to design a good looking collar that fllatters me.

Iin NY, you have Paris and Geneva which seem to be on the same level and at the same price. If you want a better product at a higher price, you go to Alex. In London, Dege, Budd, O'Flynn , etc. seem to be comparable. Is there an Alex-like equivalent in London?

Thank you.

[TVD]

I also wondered what all this fuss regarding handsown buttonholes and handsown shanked buttons was about, untill I lost my shirtmaker who did both as a matter of course. Several years later I am still searching for a permanent replacement.

Having numerous shirts with the right cut, fit does not daunt me as long as I can force the shirtmaker to copy it faithfully. But having seen what some of the Naples shirtmakers can accomplish wit two hands, a needle, cloth and thread, I find it difficult to part with the money London charges for a completely standard product.

A trip to Italy in order to establish a working relationship with somebody who knows what they are doing (unlike all the brylcreamed middlemen who peddle these artisans' wares in the capitals of Northern Europe) is looming, I fear.

[tteplitzmd]

I think the comments are right on target in the last two postings. I have stopped with the London shirtmakers. I like Geneva and Bugelli, although the latter has very, very, long production times, with lots of hand work. Obtaining Bonfanti swatches has been...difficult, unless I go to Florence where Mr. Bugelli has an enormous swatch selection.

My sense is the London shirtmkakers are 90% show, with the same outsourced makers once the pattern is made for you. Prices seem high to me given the machine made product, and limited cloth selections (rather generic English and one or two Swiss ranges).

[bry2000]

I had a phone chat with the Frank Foster, a London based shirtmaker, who has been mentioned on AAAC. He claims to be different from the other London shirtmakers in the following ways:

1) He provides a fitting before completing a shirt. The others seem to take measurements, cut the cloth, and then make the first shirt. Once the shirt has been laundered and worn a few times, the rest of the order is filled unless adjustments need to be made.

2) He says all of his work is not sent away to a factory.

3) He says he makes a true bespoke shirt. The others just modify blocked patterns. (no idea if this is true).

Other details. He charges GBP135 + VAT per shirt; minimum of 6 shirts for a new customer. Claims he does all the cutting in-house. I have not inspected any of his shirts so I cannot comment on the work, pattern matching, quality of the buttons, etc. As far as I can discern, there is little or no hand work used to make the shirts.

I would give him a try, but I am put off by the large minimum order, which is to be paid for up front in full at the time of the order.

[whittaker]

That's interesting about Frank Foster. Certainly the first I've heard mentioned in London who provides a "proper" fitting. Please keep us posted how it goes if you do give him a try.

I'm one stage further than you in this journey, committed to an order of six shirts with T&A. Thus far I am happy with the service received. In the next few days I'll post a few pictures and hope to get some comments to help me get the best shirt possible from them.

T&A have made it clear they will redo the first shirt if its not satisfactory and that they can give me hand-sewn shanked buttons if I require.

[Guest]

I also have not learned the hand-sewn/machine sewn difference, but shanked buttons look fabulous and I think they are much more durable. I do not know if shanking can be done by machine (I do not think so).

There are others with much more experience, but amongst the shirts I have (Jantzen, Barba, Bugelli, Carlo Franco, Finnamore, Giam Paulo (a Barba look-alike supposedly picked up by Barneys for this or next season), and Liste Rouge, Bugelli is by far the most distinctive and beautiful. I do not have fit issues really because I have so many shirts that fit me well I can easily have them copied (that is what Bugelli did, with an error or two) and I do not like a really tight (and harder to perfect) fit because I do not have a nice body. Barba is the most inconsistent in fit and quality, though all their materials are superlative. When I say "fit," I mean that given one size of RTW, the shirts vary in their dimensions the most. This would not apply to their MTM I assume (they do not make bespoke). If I were in Europe I would love to give their MTM a spin.

But were I near Bugelli, he is the shirtmaker whose bill for $290 dollars/ shirt I did not really question, that the shirts were worth it was obvious, even to an ingenue like me. Obviously, at $45 dollars/shirt, Jantzen was worth it, but the question of materials is a huge one and you have to dial down your standards quite a bit in this department to deal with Jantzen, because they won't send swatches.

[tteplitzmd]

I am not one to want to pay a lot for shirts. Curiously, I had the same reaction as my colleague, Dr. Bresch: I had no problem with the $370 bill for my Bugelli prototype. I just wish I could get it back from him after sending it back to Florence to loosen the cuffs.