New English Bespoke Shirtmaker: Wil Whiting

[bond_and_beyond]

Am I missing something?

Doesn't seem like you have. Budd, from what I have read, does, in fact, cut an individual pattern for their clients. And it is tweaked through a fitting process whereupon a first shirt is made to the pattern. That is a good process, if it is true. And making custom collars is a necessary service. Sounds good to me.

Not sure why you would doubt that to be true, either for Budd or T&A. I have seen my pattern from both makers.

BB

[alden]

Not sure why you would doubt that to be true, either for Budd or T&A. I have seen my pattern from both makers.

That is a good process, if it is true.

I was referring to the process ie drafting a pattern, refining it over the fittings and cutting the shirt to the pattern. The existence of patterns means nothing. The MTM makers whose factories I visited assured me that the computer could create and print a paper pattern that the shirtmaker could show to the client as being his "personalized" pattern. A pattern derived from data input into a machine is pretty much useless and just for show to assuage the gullible.

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

Not sure why you would doubt that to be true, either for Budd or T&A. I have seen my pattern from both makers.

That is a good process, if it is true.

I was referring to the process ie drafting a pattern, refining it over the fittings and cutting the shirt to the pattern. The existence of patterns means nothing. The MTM makers whose factories I visited assured me that the computer could create and print a paper pattern that the shirtmaker could show to the client as being his "personalized" pattern. A pattern derived from data input into a machine is pretty much useless and just for show to assuage the gullible.

Cheers

But Michael, seriously, we are not discussing any old MTM maker, but Budd and T&A. They both create the patterns in store based on the measurements (this manually drafted pattern is what I have seen), whereas in addition Budd also cuts the cloth after the pattern in store (T&A digitises the manual pattern).

BB

[alden]

They both create the patterns in store based on the measurements (this manually drafted pattern is what I have seen)

BB

That is the first step in the process. If the rest of the process is as I have described. If the drafted pattern is tweaked through the process of the fittings. If the perfected pattern is then used to cut the shirt....Perfect.

If God himself was making my shirt, I would like to be sure of the process.

The process used to craft a bespoke suit is the same process for a bespoke jacket is the same process for a bespoke shirt. The process does not change or very slightly.

(A digitized pattern? )

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

They both create the patterns in store based on the measurements (this manually drafted pattern is what I have seen)

BB

That is the first step in the process. If the rest of the process is as I have described. If the drafted pattern is tweaked through the process of the fittings. If the perfected pattern is then used to cut the shirt....Perfect.

Indeed. The pattern made based on measurements is used to produce the trial shirt. The trial shirt is then worn and washed at home a few times before brought to the store where the fit is evaluated. Any adjustments are noted, the pattern updated, and a new trial shirt made (or if very slight changes needed, alterations are done to the trial shirt). The process continues until the pattern has been perfected.

The process used to craft a bespoke suit is the same process for a bespoke jacket is the same process for a bespoke shirt. The process does not change or very slightly.

But surely you don't do fittings on each shirt you order? For example if you order 10 shirts you do fittings on all of them?

If not then the process is not quite the same as for a bespoke jacket is it?

Therefore, as long as the pattern for the shirts is perfected the method of arriving at the perfected pattern should not matter that much (as opposed to bespoke jackets where, no matter how good the pattern, fittings are required for each and every jacket)?

(A digitized pattern? )

Yes, they draft it by hand then it is scanned as opposed to sending the paper copy to the factory. Seems reasonable enough to me.

BB

[davidhuh]

Am I missing something?

Doesn't seem like you have. Budd, from what I have read, does, in fact, cut an individual pattern for their clients. And it is tweaked through a fitting process whereupon a first shirt is made to the pattern. That is a good process, if it is true. And making custom collars is a necessary service. Sounds good to me.

Its also good you don't care about handwork, because I don't know where you would find it in the UK anyway. And I appreciate that you, unlike so many others on forums, refuse to dis something just because you can't have it. That is a pitiful human reaction I have trouble understanding. I'd love to be twenty years younger, but I wouldn't go onto a forum and disparage youth.

But I suspect you care much more about hand sewing than you realize. If you wore a fully machine made suit instead of the hand sewn beauties Edwin makes, you would immediately feel the difference in fit and comfort (your stated objectives.) And yet as regards shirts you are convinced that somehow it doesn't matter. Have a hand sewn shirt made and then make the judgement based on experience.

My experience after decades of observation is that men, who would like to dress well, consistently let themselves down with their shirts. They wear ham and egg shirts with caviar suits. The overall result is ham and egg.

Dear Michael,

I respect your experience, while mine is slightly different. I certainly appreciate the hand made suit, no discussion.

Also, I fully recognise the shirt issue as you describe it, which made me fixing my shirts with Budd before even going back to a tailor. The few things we had to alter in shirtings over time were:
- I prefer a split chevron yoke
- striped shirts: pattern should match with the yoke and arm/cuff
- I prefer French surgeon cuffs on dress shirts
- all buttons sewn on by hand with a shank

We recently did some white tie shirts. This was a different story altogether. New measures taken, and a total of three fittings with the shirt cutter.

I have some shirts entirely hand made by an old lady. This is very nice stuff for country clothing and single cuff shirts. Her hand made button holes are immaculate. Over all, there is considerable variation in precision. It has been impossible convincing her to make the left cuff a little larger to account for my watch. For dress shirts, I stay with Budd; for sports shirts I'm flexible and use both.

Cheers, David

[alden]

For dress shirts, I stay with Budd; for sports shirts I'm flexible and use both.

HI David

That is the plan I would adopt too.

Cheers

[alden]

But surely you don't do fittings on each shirt you order? For example if you order 10 shirts you do fittings on all of them?

I absolutely do fittings on every shirt I order that is going to be worn with suits or dinner suit. They have to be spot on. For sports shirts crafted from an established pattern, I am less concerned.

Indeed. The pattern made based on measurements is used to produce the trial shirt. The trial shirt is then worn and washed at home a few times before brought to the store where the fit is evaluated. Any adjustments are noted, the pattern updated, and a new trial shirt made (or if very slight changes needed, alterations are done to the trial shirt). The process continues until the pattern has been perfected.

If the first shirt is cut in house by the person who measured you and little bits of cut shirt fabric are sent off to be sewn into a trial shirt at a factory and subsequent shirts are made to correct errors until a final pattern has been perfected, I have already said it five times now, it sounds like an adequate process for people who are an easy fit. (I could never use this process.)

That being said, something just nags at me saying that it probably doesn't really happen like this because the process is too time consuming and inefficient. It would be so much easier to do fittings the way a tailor does right in the shop, tearing down the fitting and perfecting the pattern before a first shirt is made. Then corrections if there are any could be made on the second shirt. So you only have to make one shirt. Why pay for and risk failure with all these intermediate "trial" shirts? It is neither effective nor cost effective for the shirtmaker. And shirtmakers, like tailors, love cost effective things. Sending numbers off to a factory to let a computer do the work and print a pattern, is the most cost effective.

And I am not sure why these shirtmakers send a digitized or any pattern to the factory. The coat maker doesn't use a pattern, he sews the bits cut by the cutter. I suppose the pattern is there for reference, but he really doesn't need it if he knows his cutter.

There are just a few things that ring funny to me. But I truly think the lesson here, for new bespeakers, is to know your process and pick the process that suits your particular fitting needs. If you have big problems, use a real custom shirtmaker. If you are an easy fit and are more concerned about details than fit, use a MTM process. If you need something to cover your body because its cold and women find your naked torso horrendous, buy a shirt.

Cheers

[andy57]

There are just a few things that ring funny to me. But I truly think the lesson here, for new bespeakers, is to know your process and pick the process that suits your particular fitting needs. If you have big problems, use a real custom shirtmaker. If you are an easy fit and are more concerned about details than fit, use a MTM process. If you need something to cover your body because its cold and women find your naked torso horrendous, buy a shirt.

Cheers

I think this is key--know the process your shirtmaker is using. I'm pretty confident that I understand the process at Budd, even though I'm a new customer. My cutter measured me, cut my pattern, was the one who conducted the fitting, noted the alterations, and is who will cut a new pattern (or whatever tweaks he needs to make). I know where the shirts are made. The cutter cuts the shirts, by hand, in the shop in the Piccadilly Arcade. The bits get sent to Andover where they are assembled, by machine sewing, into a shirt. That shirt then received a washing before I tried it last week. But it would still shrink some more and it definitely needed more allowance for that. And so on.

Michael, you may well be right that, not having experienced a fully hand-made shirt, I don't really know what I'm missing. If I get the chance to work with a maker who does full hand work then I shall. Sadly, I know of none that visit San Francisco, and I travel to Italy far too infrequently (although what a great excuse it would be to change that!)

I've been trying to find shirts that are presentable and that are comfortable for some time, now. My shirts from Hemrajani are pretty close and I have every opportunity to work with them to get the shirt exactly as I want it. My shirts from Simone Abbarchi are nice...but there's something very slightly "off" about them. I'm now working with Budd mostly because I like the people there. Every time I've been in their shop I have a good experience. I met the owner and I liked him and what he is trying to do to expand Budd's ability to serve US-based customers like me. In the end, though, it will come down to the results and we shall see how that goes.

As for Liz Hurley, well Michael, you and I are of like mind, shall we say? And it simply goes to show what an idiot Hugh Grant is.

[bond_and_beyond]

I absolutely do fittings on every shirt I order that is going to be worn with suits or dinner suit. They have to be spot on. For sports shirts crafted from an established pattern, I am less concerned.

Wow! You must have a lot of time on your hands Though I enjoy a fitting as much as the next guy, one of the pleasures of having the pattern established is being able to just ring up the shirtmaker and order more without any more effort. Shirts are undergarments after all.. Not worth that much effort in my book.

If the first shirt is cut in house by the person who measured you and little bits of cut shirt fabric are sent off to be sewn into a trial shirt at a factory and subsequent shirts are made to correct errors until a final pattern has been perfected, I have already said it five times now, it sounds like an adequate process for people who are an easy fit. (I could never use this process.)

That being said, something just nags at me saying that it probably doesn't really happen like this because the process is too time consuming and inefficient. It would be so much easier to do fittings the way a tailor does right in the shop, tearing down the fitting and perfecting the pattern before a first shirt is made. Then corrections if there are any could be made on the second shirt. So you only have to make one shirt. Why pay for and risk failure with all these intermediate "trial" shirts? It is neither effective nor cost effective for the shirtmaker. And shirtmakers, like tailors, love cost effective things. Sending numbers off to a factory to let a computer do the work and print a pattern, is the most cost effective.

The marginal cost of a shirt made in a factory is likely not that high. The use of the limited amount of time available with the shirtmaker might be more of an issue to them.

And I am not sure why these shirtmakers send a digitized or any pattern to the factory. The coat maker doesn't use a pattern, he sews the bits cut by the cutter. I suppose the pattern is there for reference, but he really doesn't need it if he knows his cutter.

Because the shirts are cut at the factory in the case of T&A at least. There is a video of it online, they cut your entire order at once (one cloth on top of another) using an electric saw (or whatever it is called). Again, I am not sure why that would be an issue since a shirt will be washed and pressed, washed and pressed and will not go through the whole crafting process of a bespoke jacket (where pressing at every stage is key etc).

There are just a few things that ring funny to me. But I truly think the lesson here, for new bespeakers, is to know your process and pick the process that suits your particular fitting needs. If you have big problems, use a real custom shirtmaker. If you are an easy fit and are more concerned about details than fit, use a MTM process. If you need something to cover your body because its cold and women find your naked torso horrendous, buy a shirt.

Cheers

Indeed, if one is particularly hard to fit then maybe the process you describe is needed (with hours spent with a shirtmaker doing fittings, which the shirtmaker still remarkably only charges USD 80 for per shirt ).

But I still hold that the process that shirts through at for example Budd or T&A deserve to be called bespoke as opposed to MTM.

BB

[hectorm]

But I still hold that the process that shirts through at for example Budd or T&A deserve to be called bespoke as opposed to MTM.

I had the same certainty for more than 20 years until recently, when I started exchanging notes with some purists who only consider it bespoke provided the shirt is hand-made by a single artisan (or some small variation on this theme).
To tell you the truth, I'm more interested in fit and quality than in name and process.
From the mid 70s into the early 90s I dealt with several shirtmakers in a few countries. Patterns were cut for me and a fitting process ensued. Some shirts had extensive hand work, some had very little. I just called those shirts, and their makers called them too: custom-made in the US and Hong Kong, and "a la medida" in Spanish speaking countries.
In the 90s came my initiation to Jermyn Street. Budd called them bespoke, but despite Mr. Butcher's superb detachable collars, they were machine sewn by a seamstress. Turnbull & Asser also called them bespoke but they charged me extra if I wanted hand-finished buttonholes, for instance.
Later, in Italy, nobody -hand work or not- called my shirts bespoke, just "su misura".
Is a shirt whose sleeves are set by hand noticeable more confortable than when it's machine sewn? I cannot really tell as I can tell about my jackets. Is a hand-made shirt more beautiful? I would say yes, maybe. But of course, all this depends on the craftsmanship of the shirtmaker. Bespoke or MTM, the name really doesn't matter.

[alden]

To tell you the truth, I'm more interested in fit and quality than in name and process.

Fit is a function of process. And quality is likewise linked to process in just about anything that is made. You don't have to be a Six Sigma to know that.

I agree you can surely separate "name" as a determining factor, but not process.

Cheers

[alden]

“Bespoke” is anything and everything that is not RTW (in any language you translate it into.)

Its an empty, and potentially misleading general term. If you drill down one level from Bespoke there are three major subdivisions that can be discerned according to the processes employed: Industrial, Semi-Industrial and Artisanal.

Most of the time, I hope, we discuss the relative merits of Semi-Industrial and Artisanal products here. And there is a lot to discuss because there are excellent, incompetent and fraudulent makers in each category. But all too often, in my view, many of you never even get to these more prized categories of make because you allow yourselves to be tricked by masquerading Industrial makers.

I know that to be true from what I have seen you wearing over the last decade and a half. And my advice to many of you is to stop wasting your time, the time of good tailors, and your money in the pursuit of an elegant allure if you are going to continue to wear ugly, ill crafted shirts and collars. You can twist terms and auto justify till the cows come home, but none of that exercise in futility means a thing if you look poorly.

Your weakest point is your shirts. And your look is only as good as your weakest point. It is such a shame to see beautiful tailoring marred by a disgraceful shirt.

So buy stocks, a present for your wife, an education for your kids, a new house, anything; sell your wardrobe and donate the proceeds to charity, do it, but please stop wasting the time of good tailors until you can learn how to wear a shirt.

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

“Bespoke” is anything and everything that is not RTW (in any language you translate it into.)

Its an empty, and potentially misleading general term. If you drill down one level from Bespoke there are three major subdivisions that can be discerned according to the processes employed: Industrial, Semi-Industrial and Artisanal.

Most of the time, I hope, we discuss the relative merits of Semi-Industrial and Artisanal products here. And there is a lot to discuss because there are excellent, incompetent and fraudulent makers in each category. But all too often, in my view, many of you never even get to these more prized categories of make because you allow yourselves to be tricked by masquerading Industrial makers.

I know that to be true from what I have seen you wearing over the last decade and a half. And my advice to many of you is to stop wasting your time, the time of good tailors, and your money in the pursuit of an elegant allure if you are going to continue to wear ugly, ill crafted shirts and collars. You can twist terms and auto justify till the cows come home, but none of that exercise in futility means a thing if you look poorly.

Your weakest point is your shirts. And your look is only as good as your weakest point. It is such a shame to see beautiful tailoring marred by a disgraceful shirt.

So buy stocks, a present for your wife, an education for your kids, a new house, anything; sell your wardrobe and donate the proceeds to charity, do it, but please stop wasting the time of good tailors until you can learn how to wear a shirt.

Cheers

Strong words Michael I like that!

But please, could you not then "put your money where your mouth is" and give some clear recommendations to which shirtmakers the membership should frequent to obtain shirts that are up to this standard?

I have, as mentioned, in addition to T&A and Budd, tried one Italian shirtmaker but I am not a big fan of fused collars (which I understand nearly all Italian shirtmakers use).

So which shirtmakers would you recommend (and please no more tongue in cheek references to the yellow pages )?

BB

[alden]

So which shirtmakers would you recommend (and please no more tongue in cheek references to the yellow pages )?

BB,

You've been around enough to know I never make referrals or recommendations nor do I allow them on the LL. This is an ad-free zone. And its not only because the covert adverts of the big commercial forums are repulsive to me and many members, but because it is very hard to make a categoric choice for someone else. You have to go and do these things by yourself and follow your own instincts.

As you know, I have a few Italian made shirt, not even one of them has a fused collar.

A few years ago I posted a list of shirt makers in Naples, just a list without recommendations. I suspect this list is pretty much up to date. Take a look at this list and I will respond to your questions offline because I know you are truly earnest about these things. And I created this site to try and help YOU!

And I would ask our experienced members to try and help out to. Let BB know by PM the names of shirt makers that you feel meet the proper requisites. Especially our Italian members...

Cheers

Cheers