Made To Measure

[Elch]

Dear Uppercase,

as much as I may have enjoyed your posts over the years - why are you so sure, that we have been sold out to the 'mystery' of bespoke, instead of (only?) YOU having been subject to great advertising of mediocre products?

I have always refused to accept mediocre work from any tailor, the same as I would refuse any of my work 'fit for discussion' unless I deem it so. Being fortunate enough to meet my tailor, who shares the same opionion, I have to strongly disagree with you in any of the (old) masters of tailoring deserving any such generalisation.

I have always regarded the relationship between tailor and customer to be of an exceptional kind: Partly, because the masters I got to know would never make any shortcuts since their ethos would not allow it, partly because thex shared my Passion for great tailoring. And is there anything more beautiful than a work of art both tailor and customer deem to be the best their collaboration could achieve?

Wherever this discussion may yield - for which I do not have the slightest sympathy! -: Fit of clothes or not - why would anybody want to compare a work of art to a factory operation?

[Screaminmarlon]

Dear Uppercase,

as much as I may have enjoyed your posts over the years - why are you so sure, that we have been sold out to the 'mystery' of bespoke, instead of (only?) YOU having been subject to great advertising of mediocre products?

I have always refused to accept mediocre work from any tailor, the same as I would refuse any of my work 'fit for discussion' unless I deem it so. Being fortunate enough to meet my tailor, who shares the same opionion, I have to strongly disagree with you in any of the (old) masters of tailoring deserving any such generalisation.

I have always regarded the relationship between tailor and customer to be of an exceptional kind: Partly, because the masters I got to know would never make any shortcuts since their ethos would not allow it, partly because thex shared my Passion for great tailoring. And is there anything more beautiful than a work of art both tailor and customer deem to be the best their collaboration could achieve?

Wherever this discussion may yield - for which I do not have the slightest sympathy! -: Fit of clothes or not - why would anybody want to compare a work of art to a factory operation?

+1
That sums it up for me

[aston]

It's very one dimensional thinking to assert that anything other than bespoke is somehow inferior.

I have a couple of very expensive cars, which I enjoy immensely and whose workmanship I admire, and a cheaper mass produced thing which is very fast and a hoot to drive when I am in that mood, which does not pretend to be a version of the more expensive ones.

[HristoStefanov]

...
(And BTW folks, who knew, but LL, even with its minuscule readership, is considered an influencer and persuader of sorts in the estimable opinion of Hugo Jacomet as noted in his book -The Parisian Gentleman. This coffee table size, luciously illustrated, book, well worth buying, as well as his latest book: The Italian Gentlemen. Tremendous resources, both. )
...

The Parisian Gentleman has some paid publications(for example on Sartoria Formosa) which are not marked as paid publications which is in my eyes dishonest and for this reason I don't follow his blog.

[Scot]

Yet, I think that we, all of us statistically minded engineers, need to next consider the value of hand stitching, this, the principle difference between bespoke and MTM.

This is, in every conceivable respect, wrong.

[Screaminmarlon]

I'm no expert, a taylor should chime in, but I think the difference between the two, MTM and bespoke, consists not only in hand stitching (where it counts, not as an ornament), but how the taylor manipulate the cloth (a good taylor does it also with the iron) starting from an individual pattern.
They're two very different animals: the bespoke one often snorts, breathes and neighs

[bond_and_beyond]

I am a bit surprised that on a forum such as the LL, there seems to be uncertainty / confusion with regards to the basic differences between MTM and bespoke.

The key to bespoke is not (only) the make (ie hand sewing etc, though of course very important to the result also) but the process, ie individual pattern made, basted fitting, forward fitting and the rest. Factory made garments go through a completely different process (basically input of measurements and then adjustments made to the finished garment if needed). All who have gone through both know what a difference the fittings make, particularly the basted fitting.

The end result of MTM in terms of fit can of course be very good, but I cannot see that, for the ones with harder fitting physiques, it can achieve the same as bespoke. The process does not permit it.

BB

[old henry]

"Ya can't stop the tide"

[Richard3]

Except for LL cloth The old cloth is gone. The old tailors are gone.

Fortunately I still have my old tailor and he has lots of old cloth.

[DavidS]

...

[hectorm]

There are all ranges of MTM from the machine-made, engineered and fused suit made by mysuit.com made in Mexico or Asia to the MTM Oxxford, Brioni, and Kiton which are hand-cut and hand-made in factories which are more like workshops.

If bespoke is defined -in "bench" terms- restricting it to the intervention of a single artisan who cuts the specific pattern, cuts the cloth pieces and puts them together by hand giving it the final form, then, not even my best Savile Row suits are bespoke.
But they are not MTM either. Or are they?
Also, what about my suits made in the late 80s, beautifully put together by hand by a single old school tailor, but one who I discovered didn't cut original patterns for me, modifying his pre-existing patterns instead. If these were not bespoke by some definition, I really didn't care much. The results were magnificent.
It really doesn't matter gentlemen.
If some of you have hidden in the closet an old tailor who still puts his heart in forming your suits by hand all by himself from start to end, good for you.
Enjoy them while they last, and stop rubbing it in.

[bond_and_beyond]

If bespoke is defined -in "bench" terms- restricting it to the intervention of a single artisan who cuts the specific pattern, cuts the cloth pieces and puts them together by hand giving it the final form, then, not even my best Savile Row suits are bespoke.
But they are not MTM either. Or are they?
Also, what about my suits made in the late 80s, beautifully put together by hand by a single old school tailor, but one who I discovered didn't cut original patterns for me, modifying his pre-existing patterns instead. If these were not bespoke by some definition, I really didn't care much. The results were magnificent.
It really doesn't matter gentlemen.
If some of you have hidden in the closet an old tailor who still puts his heart in forming your suits by hand all by himself from start to end, good for you.
Enjoy them while they last, and stop rubbing it in.

For me bespoke is about the individual pattern (even though adjusted from block patterns, that is all up to the tailor's preference) and the fittings, particularly the basted fitting. This is the main difference from MTM (as a lot of hand work is also done by several of the high end MTM providers, such as Cesare Attolini and others, who do hand padding etc).

BB

[dfoverdx2]

I see MTM as an alternative to RTW but absolutely not bespoke. At the end MTM is quite standard and with RTW you've plenty of size options and you hem the pants, sleeves etc.
Everyone will have its own answer to this question because each of us makes his own experience. I tried a good number of tailors and finally found the one who understands my body and making greatly comfortable suits. I am not going to change my tailor and the day he stops doing tailoring i will also stop making suits and continue to wear what i have. So it's really question of experience.

[Manself]

I'm really surprised at what I'm reading in this thread.

MTM is, in my experience, a world away from bespoke. The clothes made for me by great tailors (and the same is true of my genuinely bespoke shirts and shoes) bear no comparison with factory-made garments, even if the factory-made garments fit well. Factory-made garments lack the humanity of bespoke clothes - this is palpable in the way they're made and how they feel when you wear them. I regard that humanity as a virtue, but I can see that some people might prefer the "perfection" of factory-made clothes.

I think that misgivings about the image of bespoke (the crystal decanters full of whisky no one ever drinks, the hunting prints, the leather sofas, the chandeliers) are an argument against MTM. Bespoke tailors get to use all of that BS to sprinkle magic dust on their MTM clothes, and to pull up the prices of MTM (which are opaque to say the least) so that they're perfectly placed between their RTW range and their bespoke.

Bespoke is hard work, slow, inconsistent, inconvenient and demands something of the client. When it's good it's also completely wonderful. I wouldn't give it up for the world.

[davidhuh]

Bespoke is hard work, slow, inconsistent, inconvenient and demands something of the client. When it's good it's also completely wonderful. I wouldn't give it up for the world.

Thank you Mansel.

Cheers, David