Are the days of tailored clothing numbered?

[Scot]

A specialist Endodontist in a provincial UK city will charge at least £750 for a molar root canal treatment that takes 2 hours (sadly, I know). That is an hourly rate of £375.

What is the cost of an average SR 2-piece these days? Maybe £4000 inc VAT. Now there are various claims about the number of artisan-hours that go into this but let me suggest a very conservative estimate of 30 hours. That is an hourly rate of about £130. Some contributors to the product will get more than others but central London overheads are considerable, I assume. I have always thought of bespoke tailoring as very reasonably priced for the time and skill that goes into it, and considering the arm and leg (almost literally) that goes to the government. Mind you, a tailoring disaster is probably less painful that a root canal disastser, physically at least

[HristoStefanov]

A specialist Endodontist in a provincial UK city will charge at least £750 for a molar root canal treatment that takes 2 hours (sadly, I know). That is an hourly rate of £375.

What is the cost of an average SR 2-piece these days? Maybe £4000 inc VAT. Now there are various claims about the number of artisan-hours that go into this but let me suggest a very conservative estimate of 30 hours. That is an hourly rate of about £130. Some contributors to the product will get more than others but central London overheads are considerable, I assume. I have always thought of bespoke tailoring as very reasonably priced for the time and skill that goes into it, and considering the arm and leg (almost literally) that goes to the government. Mind you, a tailoring disaster is probably less painful that a root canal disastser, physically at least

Scot, this is absolutely true. But considering that the average rent price in London is higher than the average wage, many middle class workers with university degree are forced to be cost conscious and prefer not to spend 4000 GBP on a suit. Surely it is possible to put aside 100 GBP per Month and to buy a suit once every couple of years, but if you have many other costs in your life (dentists, tuition fees for the childrens' school ect.) bespoke tailoring slips easily down the priority list.

[couch]

Not to mention that, especially in the RL case, it's a real question how many people actually pay sticker price for the items hectorm spotted in New York. Probably some do. Probably some do for Brioni, too, though I've been appalled at the decline in, shall we say, appeal at that atelier in recent years. RL has regularly scheduled sales with dramatic discounts, and I suspect staff are empowered to favor regular customers as well.

The basic point that designer-label off-rack-suits are not always cheaper than bespoke, and usually offer inferior quality on almost all measures, remains true. But we've often discussed the fact that more people are interested in being recognized in, or in the pride of owning, a prominent luxury brand than in the actual fit and quality of the garments themselves. This may be due either to the influence of a shallow commodity culture leading to a shallow commodity taste, or simply to being unaware and uneducated about the differences. The fashion marketing machine would like to preserve that ignorance because it creates malleable consumers. But it seems that, thanks to the influence of online sites, forums, and social media channels dedicated to high-quality menswear, a fair amount of relevant knowledge (some of which was common knowledge 40 or 50 years ago) seems to be diffusing into the population again, including among younger men.

Things will change, but I don't think all is lost. An Anthony Bourdain can still find an audience for handcrafts, including old henry's incomparable creations. Even a lot of what gets photographed at Piiti includes bespoke pieces.

But I think HristovStefanov is right to remind us that cost is a constraint. My own bespoke wardrobe is being built much more slowly than I would have wished, and not because I can't find good tailors.

As Alden has said, however, the compensation for that is an incentive to stay in shape!

[uppercase]

I think that Leonard Logsdail’s post is very important because it tells us all that we need to know as to whether our bespoke days are numbered. Or not. : his own son is entering the business.

Would he let his son enter a business that was a dead end?? No. (Although he adds an important caveat which we’ll get to below)

Now , Len is passing on his skills and client book to his son. And that is a very common practice among craftsmen.

I can at the top of my head think of maybe 5-10 fathers who are passing on their tailoring craft/business to their children/relatives. Count along with me....
-John and Steven Hitchcock.
-Edwin and Matthew and Christopher DeBoise
-Leonard Logsdaile and son
-Ambrosi
-Solito
-A.Caraceni
-Tommy&Guilio Caraceni
-Rubinacci
-Kiton/Atollini/Isaia

Lots of Italians for sure....

I am sure that there are others that I can’t think of. Family run businesses ....

And equally important: who and where are the future customers. ??

Again, I think that it is a generational thing. Partially, at least.

I got into bespoke through my father many, many years ago when I was a teenager.
My first tailor, was his tailor.

It stuck with me, yes, intermittently, sporadically, over the years , but here I am today writing on LL. It’s sort of interesting.

So bespoke and tailoring is something nice. Like dining in a simple, old restaurant where your father and grandfather dined. The food may be good. Or not so good. But you go. It’s maybe a little bit of heritage....who knows.? I would guess that we all go for different reasons. Maybe it’s not even all about clothes. Anyway ...

How many of you started out with bespoke through father’s or relatives or friends.??

Each generation brings new clients and new tailors.

Yet I’m guessing that at least some bespoke demand gets passed along to families of bespoke tailors through generations of bespoke customers.

Tailoring will be sticking around for a long time. My thought.

Now consider what L. Logsdail writes in his final paragraph above.

He writes that there will always be a business for this end of the trade.
But he asks : will there still be tailors in 20 years in NYC - I.e., the men and women who do the actual hand sewing of the garments ?? Perhaps the answer to that is : no.
At least in bespoke centers where skilled tailors are already hard to find and expensive to employ like London and NYC and Paris.
I suspect though that skilled tailors will always be available and accessible in Italy. And points East as well.

And then Len adds that at least his son will have the experience and training to properly fit MTM if it comes to that, I.e., if the handwork tailors are no longer available in NYC for full bespoke with all of the attendant hand work.... and bespoke there fades away as a result.

Very interesting.

Is Len describing the future?: that the lack of skilled tailors and seamstresses - not cutters, not small bespoke enterprises, not clients - but tailors, will subvert hand sewn bespoke clothing??
...and that the future lies in hand cut, but machine sewn MTM. ?? ..
.. in other words, machines replace the human hand stitching , padding, collars, button holes... all needed to put together a hand cut garment?
Yes, I think that that is what Len is saying and with the little I know about the business, I would agree with that.

I know that if I were personally starting out today, and needed to quickly acquire a nice wardrobe, yet wanted to select the cloth that appeals to me, have my measurements taken to adjust for my specific physical anomalies, I would choose MTM, not bespoke.

I could have a beautiful suit made up for me in 6 weeks rather than 6 months, all the while selecting the most beautiful cloth of my choice and have my dropped shoulder corrected for by an expert cutter, who will later fit my MTM suit. Why not MTM ?

This is called Semi-Bespoke. It is tailored clothing, hand cut , tailor fitted, but machine sewn. At least that is what I understand it to be.

In this regard, Steed’s website describing their MTM program is very interesting.
And certainly , the bespoke clothes coming out of Edwin DeBoise & Sons shop are superb.

http://steed.co.uk/made-to-measure/

At starting prices for a 3 piece suit of US$1,800– that is extraordinary value, particularly after noting Hectorm’s shocking report on RTW prices.

I am sorely tempted to give Edwin a call when I am next in London and try out his MTM program rather than his bespoke.

And I expect that I would be very pleasantly surprised.

[aston]

I have both bespoke and MTM from Steed.

Whilst there is a clear gap between them, the MTM absolutely trounces any of the "designer" labels in terms of quality and fit, and represents fantastic value.

[alden]

But he asks : will there still be tailors in 20 years in NYC - I.e., the men and women who do the actual hand sewing of the garments ?? Perhaps the answer to that is : no.

Len is saying that they are virtually extinct today....today, not in twenty years. He says: "Take a look around the country and count how many traditional bespoke tailors are left. Not many. Plenty of imitators, but not the real thing."

Yes, there are loads of imitators and very few of the real thing! And if you look around the world, not only in the USA, you will find a load of imitators and very few of the real thing!

And there is a constant flow of cynical marketing promoting the imitators.

And the LL is here to protect the real thing

[alden]

The intent of the OP was to know how much longer people will be wearing "tailored clothing" ie lounge suits and sports coats etc. as opposed to boots and streetwear. The answer I am getting from you is that traditional dress has a future. I am not sure it does.

The corollary discussion, premised on the future of traditional dress, is what kind of traditional dress will continue to be made: RTW, MTM or Benchmade clothing.

Today, the production of traditional hand sewn benchmade clothing is an infinitesimal subset of all traditional dress clothes. It is vanishing despite the transmission of knowledge from a handful of fathers to sons. I am trying to summarize here.

As long as people continue to want to wear traditional clothing, there will be RTW and MTM available as they are not dependent on disappearing hand crafting skills and abilities. Agreed.

Cheers

[HristoStefanov]

Solito's son is being trained to run a shop. He is not a tailor.

As far as I know Luigi Solito is doing cutting work with his father.
It would be unfair to accuse him without knowing the situation for sure.

Apart from that I know so many examples:

a) For passing the family craft to the son - for example Sartoria Pirozzi, Musella Dembech ect.

b) Young tailors
- Edward Sexton trains a young cutter
- I know several young guys training tailoring
- And last but not least - the very best example that I know - Chittleborough & Morgan.
Joe Morgan does wonders and he has gathered a wonderful young team.
Francis Paley currently cuts trousers for me and we are discussing a jacket.
Just look at some pictures of the team of Chittleborough & Morgan:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZiuyP5heq7/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BQVlsTxBNzk/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BT6ERp2hdsr/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BUUJm2_B5F6/

I think Joe deserves great admiration for his dedication to train a new generation of craftsmen.

[alden]

Hristo

All of this is great news.

When I was contemplating acquiring an SR firm, my own plans had a very large budget set aside to develop a world class training program. And there are firms doing it today and this is excellent. I do not know what they are teaching, but we can hope for the best.

As regards father to son tailoring transmissions, remember that is takes ten years of very hard work to even begin in tailoring. If you have a great teacher. The sons of good tailors will have good teachers, normally speaking. Will they have the talent and the discipline to learn? That will make the difference. So not all sons of tailors are destined to become tailors, some may well become very competent shopkeepers however. There is nothing disparaging about being a shopkeeper or a merchant in my view. Its an excellent profession.

I have known many of the people you talk about for close to twenty years. Some of the funniest conversations I have had over the years with tailors in Naples were about fathers and sons. "Oh so and so has a son and he is keen to learn. But XYZ's son is a lazy bastard and will never sew a stitch in his life. ABC has no son at all, and it is sad his business will end when he passes." These were all very funny to listen to and every tailor had a strong opinion about the sons of the others. These wonderful things will wind up in my book someday. And that is how I have some of my information though much of it truly is nothing more than gossip.

But the very best of the father and son stories in Naples has to be about "the poor guy who had no son." I even heard the story from the tailor himself who lamented his lack of a son. Well the tailor passed away. And lo and behold, a son appeared magically from nowhere. A spontaneous birth, born as a tailor ready to take over his father's business! Heck the tourists don't know...so why not?

I hope I can write these stories well one day and do the hilarity of the situation justice in the chapter entitled "Fathers and Sons."

Cheers

[Scot]

I know that if I were personally starting out today, and needed to quickly acquire a nice wardrobe, yet wanted to select the cloth that appeals to me, have my measurements taken to adjust for my specific physical anomalies, I would choose MTM, not bespoke.

I could have a beautiful suit made up for me in 6 weeks rather than 6 months, all the while selecting the most beautiful cloth of my choice and have my dropped shoulder corrected for by an expert cutter, who will later fit my MTM suit. Why not MTM ?

Because, in my experience, it doesn't work.

If you are starting out on a limited budget and you need to acquire a wardrobe quickly, with no prior experience of bespoke, my suggestion would be to go to as many stores as possible and try on lots of RTW clothes until you find the block that works for you. Get it tweaked if needed. I am no tailor but it seems to me that MTM is just a means of choosing your own cloth for use in an industrial process using a block pattern, and sticking in the odd extra pocket. If MTM works for fit then you are probably not difficult to fit.

Bespoke can be frustrating, and expensive, but I have tried MTM (from an esteemed source) and it was a waste of money; so more expensive in the end and even more frustrating. Hirsto is correct, save-up, or keep that car for a bit longer, or buy less expensive vintages, whatever, and find yourself a good tailor - they may be diminishing in number, but there are some left.

[HristoStefanov]

By the way I started 2012 with a Zegna MTM. It looked good when I am standing still like a mannequin. But my arms were so restricted in movement, that I sold it on eBay soon after acquiring my first bespoke suit.
I don't believe that any bespoke tailor believes in MTM. They do it because it is the easiest way to scale their production and to earn money for a living.

As once Old Henry said in a TV interview - he can make 10 to 15 suits a year.
With a production of 10 to 15 no tailor can become rich. That is why many do MTM. In order to scale to several hundred suits per year and earn some money out of it.

My shoe maker Antonio Meccariello does bespoke orders for his own pleasure and to prove a point by implementing complicated orders like seamless crocodile shoes ect. So bespoke is a source of fulfillment and joy and not really a source of income. He earns his living by selling more than 1000 pairs RTW and MTO per year.

[hectorm]

As far as I know Luigi Solito is doing cutting work with his father.
It would be unfair to accuse him without knowing the situation for sure.

I've been a client (although infrequent, unfortunately) of Gennaro Solito since the late 90s. I can attest that by now his son Luigi is an accomplished cutter on his own merit.

[alden]

For passing the family craft to the son - for example Sartoria Pirozzi, Musella Dembech ect.

Yes. Nunzio Pirozzi and his son have been mentioned on the LL and received high praise from me. He would have been on the LL CAP at the time but he was so busy with Japanese customers that getting much done was a very time consuming process. And his son was just getting started. Excellent tailors, excellent people...hard to go wrong. And Nunzio Pirozzi is the only other tailor in Naples besides Rubinacci that I could ever, in good faith, recommend to my own brother (as the Italian saying goes.)

Musella Dembech is almost an adopted son of the LL. His pages are full of great clothes made from LL fabrics. And his work is everywhere to be seen here. Again, I can recommend them with my eyes closed. And once again, they are great people as well as great tailors. And somehow, that counts alot for me.

Cheers

[Leonard Logsdail]

I know that if I were personally starting out today, and needed to quickly acquire a nice wardrobe, yet wanted to select the cloth that appeals to me, have my measurements taken to adjust for my specific physical anomalies, I would choose MTM, not bespoke.

I could have a beautiful suit made up for me in 6 weeks rather than 6 months, all the while selecting the most beautiful cloth of my choice and have my dropped shoulder corrected for by an expert cutter, who will later fit my MTM suit. Why not MTM ?

Because, in my experience, it doesn't work.

If you are starting out on a limited budget and you need to acquire a wardrobe quickly, with no prior experience of bespoke, my suggestion would be to go to as many stores as possible and try on lots of RTW clothes until you find the block that works for you. Get it tweaked if needed. I am no tailor but it seems to me that MTM is just a means of choosing your own cloth for use in an industrial process using a block pattern, and sticking in the odd extra pocket. If MTM works for fit then you are probably not difficult to fit.

Bespoke can be frustrating, and expensive, but I have tried MTM (from an esteemed source) and it was a waste of money; so more expensive in the end and even more frustrating. Hirsto is correct, save-up, or keep that car for a bit longer, or buy less expensive vintages, whatever, and find yourself a good tailor - they may be diminishing in number, but there are some left.

The difference between a made to measure suit measured by a proper tailor and one measured by a salesmen is usually vast. If you go to the wrong place, you start with a bad taste in your mouth.

Anyone can measure for an MTM suit. With a chart and some common sense someone can be taught this in an hour or so. But it's not the measurements that make it work. It's the art of understanding the nuances of a man's body and then being able to articulate this to a factory willing to work with you to this level. This is the essence of making a suit that fits. It's what I stress when talking with my son. It starts when your client walks in the door. You watch the way he walks, how his existing jacket fits (great way to learn a man's body). You do this and, by the time you get to measure, you are simply confirming what you have already noticed. This level of competence takes along time to learn by yourself. It's one of the reasons I am teaching my son how to cut paper patterns for clients. He will learn that every action, as we manipulate for, say, a low shoulder, has a reaction. This will differentiate him from others as he moves forward in this great trade.

I offer MTM suits and, like with my bespoke, I still make mistakes. But because of my ability to notice these nuances of a man's body, thankfully these mistakes are few and far between. We in the trade know that we lose money when we start altering a finished garment. It's called no-charge alterations. Do it right up front and these will charges will reduce.

I'm happy to say that my son, while still on a learning curve, is picking up on this very well. I know this because I pay the alteration charges!!

Leonard

[alden]

Mr Logsdail

Thank you for the instructive, entertaining and charming post.

Guys, any craft is only as good as the men and women who stand behind it.

MTM is only as good as the person who guides the machines. And a benchmade suit is only as good as the person who wields the chalk, scissors, needle, thread and iron.

Choose well!

Cheers