I have spent two agonizing years trying to sort out my bespoke suit wardrobe, having wasted this time working with an incompetent London based "tailor.". While I still don't have my suit wardrobe sorted, I feel as if I am on the right path with a different tailors.
At this point, I want to get started in ordering proper bespoke shirts. My prior attempts at bespoke/MTM shirts have not been satisfactory. Notably, a few years ago (before reading the various fora), I ordered MTM shirts from Paul Stuart in NY. Those shirts fit far worse than many RTW options. So, for the last few years, I have gotten by with RTW shirts from H&K, T&A, and to a lesser degree, Brooks Brothers. While I have nothing but good things to say about H&K and T&A RTW shirts, I am ready to complement my prospective new bespoke suits with properly fitting shirts. I have not settled upon a shirtmaker at this point, but I am considering the following: Sean O'Flynn (on an independent basis, not as part of N&L), Robert Whittaker (Dege), Budd, and perhaps this guy named Frank Foster, who was discusssed on AAAC. I prefer to go with a shirtmaker who does the measuring and cutting himself. I understand that the actual sewing/production will be oustsourced. I believe the folks mentioned above do the actual measuring AND cutting. Can anyone provide a specific recommendation regarding shirtmakers -- from either my list or any other choice? What are the key considerations in choosing a shirtmaker?
Thank you.
Ready for Bespoke Shirts
All the names you mentioned are based in London. Are you limiting your search to London makers?
True, good point. I guess I have the London market on my mind. I am not limited to London makers. I would consider others, especially those makers in NY. Bugelli (?) and others in Italy sound enticing, but I have no immediate plans to go to Italy. I think once I have an expert pattern down, I can try makers in Italy or Hong Kong.
Thank you for any guidance.
Thank you for any guidance.
Dege I can recommend, and they do come to NY.
New&Lingwood has a somewhat identifiable house style, but it is not extreme and their reputation is still good. Haven't bought anything from them for years.
I've had a bad go with T&A-- three sample shirts and a returned deposit. They were very nice about it, but you're not being measured by the cutter. It can make a difference.
I hear very good things about Paris shirts, based in NY.
Stephen Kempson uses a UK maker, and has a good reputation as a fitter. Might be worth a conversation with him.
New&Lingwood has a somewhat identifiable house style, but it is not extreme and their reputation is still good. Haven't bought anything from them for years.
I've had a bad go with T&A-- three sample shirts and a returned deposit. They were very nice about it, but you're not being measured by the cutter. It can make a difference.
I hear very good things about Paris shirts, based in NY.
Stephen Kempson uses a UK maker, and has a good reputation as a fitter. Might be worth a conversation with him.
To mention some of your other choices, I don't believe that Budd or Foster travel to visit clients. So that might limit the quality of service you get.
I would recommend Kabbaz above all. Especially if you are looking for the perfect pattern.
However, both Paris and Geneva make great shirts at significantly lower prices. Geneva is slightly cheaper, and a little more limited in what they can (or will) do. From what I have heard, they are quite easy to deal with. Paris is more able to realize difficult commissions, but not always the easiest to deal with. (They have gotten things wrong with my orders from time to time. They always correct it, but still ...)
However, both Paris and Geneva make great shirts at significantly lower prices. Geneva is slightly cheaper, and a little more limited in what they can (or will) do. From what I have heard, they are quite easy to deal with. Paris is more able to realize difficult commissions, but not always the easiest to deal with. (They have gotten things wrong with my orders from time to time. They always correct it, but still ...)
Bry2000:
I have used Robert Whittaker at Dege for some time, have been fairly happy and would absolutely recommend them.
They make a fairly good version of the Jermyn Street shirt. What I mean by that is that the materials are good and the construction is good, although there is not much handwork and the sewing is good, but not spectacular. As far as I am aware, they are the equal or better of every other English shirtmaker (I don’t know of Frank Foster). I received a very good fit, which has lasted for a while and is now being adjusted. In fact, an adjustment to the neck was suggested by them more than a year ago, but my vanity would not allow any changes until I needed an adjustment to the chest as well. We will see how good the adjustment works out. If you are in London frequently enough to get the pattern worked out, I would certainly recommend them to you. In particular, I think Robert Whittaker is an excellent resource, not just because he makes a good shirt, but because he has a great eye. Whenever I order tailored clothes from Dege, I am always sure to get his opinion on cloth and usually have him help me choose a shirt or two at the same time - I recall that when I ordered a brown Donegal tweed suit and asked for help with shirts, one of his suggestions was a deep blue end-on-end that I would never have thought of on my own. It turned out to be a great choice - so much so that is one of the only shirts where I have abraded the sleeve seams as well as the cuffs and collar. He has a great sense of color and imagination and that is worth more than a little to me. Over the many years, I have had one order messed up. The shirts had minor details wrong - gauntlet buttonhole parallel rather than perpendicular to sleeve and wider shoulder seam allowance than usual. I accepted the shirts as they were perfectly wearable and, in the scheme of things, not a major problem. As it turns out, I am wearing one today. I made sure that they took notice of the problem and told them not to worry about remaking them as there was nothing inherently wrong - but one did have some sloppy stitching and that was taken back to be redone. The explanation I received was perfectly satisfying and and provided some insight into their manufacturing process. I have also had more than a dozen shirts refitted with new collars and cuffs, although some had to be done in white because of a lack of availability of the original cloth. In sum, my experience has been more than satisfactory. If you will be in London long enough to get your measurements and pattern down, they would be an excellent choice.
All that said, if your resources allow, it would be hard not to suggest Alexander Kabbaz. While I have no first-hand experience, I have seen his work on some of the other members here and it appears superb (and superior to Dege). As I am sure you know from reading here and elsewhere, he is passionate about his craft. Even had I not seen the results in person, I would feel pretty confident in his ability to deliver. My resources never permitted me to use Alex as my main shirt supplier. I have enough shirts now that I don’t need volume anymore - if only I could figure out how to keep my wife from finding out (I once made the mistake of mentioning the cost of Alex’s shirts to her - she has since said to me more than once, no idea why, “just don’t let me catch you going to that shirt guy you mentioned“).
I have used Robert Whittaker at Dege for some time, have been fairly happy and would absolutely recommend them.
They make a fairly good version of the Jermyn Street shirt. What I mean by that is that the materials are good and the construction is good, although there is not much handwork and the sewing is good, but not spectacular. As far as I am aware, they are the equal or better of every other English shirtmaker (I don’t know of Frank Foster). I received a very good fit, which has lasted for a while and is now being adjusted. In fact, an adjustment to the neck was suggested by them more than a year ago, but my vanity would not allow any changes until I needed an adjustment to the chest as well. We will see how good the adjustment works out. If you are in London frequently enough to get the pattern worked out, I would certainly recommend them to you. In particular, I think Robert Whittaker is an excellent resource, not just because he makes a good shirt, but because he has a great eye. Whenever I order tailored clothes from Dege, I am always sure to get his opinion on cloth and usually have him help me choose a shirt or two at the same time - I recall that when I ordered a brown Donegal tweed suit and asked for help with shirts, one of his suggestions was a deep blue end-on-end that I would never have thought of on my own. It turned out to be a great choice - so much so that is one of the only shirts where I have abraded the sleeve seams as well as the cuffs and collar. He has a great sense of color and imagination and that is worth more than a little to me. Over the many years, I have had one order messed up. The shirts had minor details wrong - gauntlet buttonhole parallel rather than perpendicular to sleeve and wider shoulder seam allowance than usual. I accepted the shirts as they were perfectly wearable and, in the scheme of things, not a major problem. As it turns out, I am wearing one today. I made sure that they took notice of the problem and told them not to worry about remaking them as there was nothing inherently wrong - but one did have some sloppy stitching and that was taken back to be redone. The explanation I received was perfectly satisfying and and provided some insight into their manufacturing process. I have also had more than a dozen shirts refitted with new collars and cuffs, although some had to be done in white because of a lack of availability of the original cloth. In sum, my experience has been more than satisfactory. If you will be in London long enough to get your measurements and pattern down, they would be an excellent choice.
All that said, if your resources allow, it would be hard not to suggest Alexander Kabbaz. While I have no first-hand experience, I have seen his work on some of the other members here and it appears superb (and superior to Dege). As I am sure you know from reading here and elsewhere, he is passionate about his craft. Even had I not seen the results in person, I would feel pretty confident in his ability to deliver. My resources never permitted me to use Alex as my main shirt supplier. I have enough shirts now that I don’t need volume anymore - if only I could figure out how to keep my wife from finding out (I once made the mistake of mentioning the cost of Alex’s shirts to her - she has since said to me more than once, no idea why, “just don’t let me catch you going to that shirt guy you mentioned“).
Bry, I've dealt with H&K and T&A but find Budd the most satisfying shirtmakers in London, as I've detailled elsewhere in the Lounge. If my heart can persuade my head, I expect to ask Mr. Kabbaz to cut some shirts for me; but I am more than pleased by Budd, whom I regard as delivering good value for the pound.
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MildlyConsumptiv
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- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:17 pm
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Do London shirtmakers do fittings? Do you try on a shirt with open seams that then gets adjusted? Or do you get a finished shirt to try and then they adjust the rest of the order? How long does it take to get a "perfect" pattern with a shirtmaker?
PS I have no experience with either London or New York shirtmakers.
PS I have no experience with either London or New York shirtmakers.
My process with Dege was too long ago for me to remember. I did ask a few weeks ago what the current process is (I had you in mind Bry) and was told that the first shirt is made. You wear it for a bit. Come back and the fit is checked adjustments are made and when the pattern is done, the rest of the shirts are made (I forget the minimum initial order size, but unless it is above six, I view that is irrelevant). The process is the same if you are not in London then the first shirt is made, shipped to you and you have to deal with the adjustment process by e-mail and digital photo. Basically, the latter method seems inadvisable to me. If you can't nail the pattern down in person, it seems like too much trouble for me.ibucephalus wrote:Do London shirtmakers do fittings? Do you try on a shirt with open seams that then gets adjusted? Or do you get a finished shirt to try and then they adjust the rest of the order? How long does it take to get a "perfect" pattern with a shirtmaker?
PS I have no experience with either London or New York shirtmakers.
And no - no open seams or muslin try-on. I have been happy with what I have been getting, but I have no illusions that it is the ne plus ultra of bespoke shirts. But to improve on the process, I would need to step up significantly in outlay or live somewhere else.
there is a man named Frank Rostron from Manchester that is often in NY and London, makes a good shirt, terrific selection of fabrics. Shaban comes to NY from Pakistan regularly,-fabulous fabrics, lots of hand stitching and good workmanship. I am trying someone in NY named Orlando-shirts made in Naples-a geniunely eccentric man-his main business is hats and he is great at it-but I'll let you know when I get his next shipment of shirts in a few days.
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Mark Seitelman
- Posts: 965
- Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:42 am
- Location: New York City
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1. Paris Shirts
I can recommend Paris Shirts. I have had them through Bruce Clark. Of course, it's less expensive to go direct to Paris. Very well made. The stripes meet at the shoulder and gauntlet.
2. Turnbull & Asser
I can also recommend the much maligned Turnbull & Asser. As you know, the NYC store is two doors down from Oxxford.
If you're not interested in the exclusive designs, then any of the other shops can do a standard solid shirt although I have had my share of standards made by Turnbull.
I never had a problem with service. They make a sample shirt, and they will revise it one or two times. Don't expect to have ten fittings and remakes of the sample; it's not that type of service. Also, you are being measured and fitted by a "fitter" (Simon, the manager) rather than a shirtmaker. Again, I do not see this as an issue. One negative about the service is that aside from the sample shirt which can be turned-out fairly quickly (about one month), subsequent orders may take a few months.
Generally, pattern matching is good at the shoulder although I have a few with non-matches. There is no matching at the gauntlet.
The initial order is six. There is no minimum for subsequent orders. Prices start at $290 for the classic standards and about $320 for the exclusive designs.
Good luck.
I can recommend Paris Shirts. I have had them through Bruce Clark. Of course, it's less expensive to go direct to Paris. Very well made. The stripes meet at the shoulder and gauntlet.
2. Turnbull & Asser
I can also recommend the much maligned Turnbull & Asser. As you know, the NYC store is two doors down from Oxxford.
If you're not interested in the exclusive designs, then any of the other shops can do a standard solid shirt although I have had my share of standards made by Turnbull.
I never had a problem with service. They make a sample shirt, and they will revise it one or two times. Don't expect to have ten fittings and remakes of the sample; it's not that type of service. Also, you are being measured and fitted by a "fitter" (Simon, the manager) rather than a shirtmaker. Again, I do not see this as an issue. One negative about the service is that aside from the sample shirt which can be turned-out fairly quickly (about one month), subsequent orders may take a few months.
Generally, pattern matching is good at the shoulder although I have a few with non-matches. There is no matching at the gauntlet.
The initial order is six. There is no minimum for subsequent orders. Prices start at $290 for the classic standards and about $320 for the exclusive designs.
Good luck.
Thank you, Mark, for giving me some reassurance about my decision to procure my first bespoke shirts from Turnbull & Asser's newish dedicated bespoke shop, just off Jermyn Street. Everything you've said matches my experience.
I'm in receipt of my first "test" shirt. The "fitter" made it clear that, if necessary, they would start again. He suggested I wear and wash 3 times and then go back for alterations. The "test" shirt will need some tweaks but it is reasonably close. The fabric is better than I've experienced buying off the rail.
I have no point of comparison so take my opinion accordingly. My plan is to test two others before settling on a single source for shirts.
I'm in receipt of my first "test" shirt. The "fitter" made it clear that, if necessary, they would start again. He suggested I wear and wash 3 times and then go back for alterations. The "test" shirt will need some tweaks but it is reasonably close. The fabric is better than I've experienced buying off the rail.
I have no point of comparison so take my opinion accordingly. My plan is to test two others before settling on a single source for shirts.
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tteplitzmd
I would like to chime in:
I like Robert Whittaker of Dege, but the customer service is dreadful, pricing rather aggressive, and production time, erratic, at best. Too much Olde England bravura for my Eastern European taste. Cloths are rather limited compared to the better non-UK based shirtmaker competitors.
I like Geneva, the price cannot be beat, and if you supply your own cloth, a true bargain.
I do not recommend Chan (HK) for shirts----it is a loss leader for them, and the shirts consistently snug. They attribute this to US water/temperature!
That leaves me with Bugelli. Long production time, superb fit, with difficult to access Bonfanti cloths. Peerless style and workmanship. Funny how comfortable a shirt can be which offsets the circa $400 price. My 7 year old son took the two photos of me at Bugelli in July, shown in the photojournal shirt section. A master at the top of his game.
I like Robert Whittaker of Dege, but the customer service is dreadful, pricing rather aggressive, and production time, erratic, at best. Too much Olde England bravura for my Eastern European taste. Cloths are rather limited compared to the better non-UK based shirtmaker competitors.
I like Geneva, the price cannot be beat, and if you supply your own cloth, a true bargain.
I do not recommend Chan (HK) for shirts----it is a loss leader for them, and the shirts consistently snug. They attribute this to US water/temperature!
That leaves me with Bugelli. Long production time, superb fit, with difficult to access Bonfanti cloths. Peerless style and workmanship. Funny how comfortable a shirt can be which offsets the circa $400 price. My 7 year old son took the two photos of me at Bugelli in July, shown in the photojournal shirt section. A master at the top of his game.
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