A&S has some nice photos on their Instagram site.
As do quite a few other SR tailors and others.
FYI.
https://instagram.com/p/BIfnDAPjJYG/
#andersonandsheppard
Nice coat, but the rest is to be lamented....just awful.
Cheers
Cheers
A&S pinching is just for the form presentation. 95% of the A&S jackets out there on real people (including the current POW´s) are wider at the waist and hips than at the shoulders. On heavier cloths where cutting a jacket with proper draping is still possible, there is an illusion of waist suppression but never the level of pinching you see on the forms.uppercase wrote: I just abhor pinched. It can make the richest suit look fashion.
Nevertheless, following your point, I think that what might make jackets look fashion is less the pinching and more the overall slim cut.
^^^
Yes I agree that the excessive pinching is due to the modeling on a form.
I should have paid attention to that.
AS doesn't make these exaggerated silhouettes.
Still, I don't know why stores pin back the waist.
Is that the ideal masculine form in their opinion ?
I almost prefer a sack jacket in silhouette actually.
All the excessive shaping doesn't appeal.
But the sack needs to be artfully done; Brooks and J.Press never looked good on me.
Though the idea is appealing.
There is one picture of the designer Balenciaga, sitting, which drips drape throughout yet seems to fit him beautifully. The cloth is supple, fluid and full of movement. I admire that suit. The image below:
https://www.google.com/search?q=image+c ... jcqNloM%3A
Yes I agree that the excessive pinching is due to the modeling on a form.
I should have paid attention to that.
AS doesn't make these exaggerated silhouettes.
Still, I don't know why stores pin back the waist.
Is that the ideal masculine form in their opinion ?
I almost prefer a sack jacket in silhouette actually.
All the excessive shaping doesn't appeal.
But the sack needs to be artfully done; Brooks and J.Press never looked good on me.
Though the idea is appealing.
There is one picture of the designer Balenciaga, sitting, which drips drape throughout yet seems to fit him beautifully. The cloth is supple, fluid and full of movement. I admire that suit. The image below:
https://www.google.com/search?q=image+c ... jcqNloM%3A
For myself, I agree with hectorm. If you're slim and have shoulders and a waist, a jacket with no waist suppression makes you look either like a scarecrow or a post. I prefer a modified version of the Scholte idea; some drape at blades and chest, a slightly nipped (but not tight) waist, and enough cupping at the skirt to keep it close to the trousers. This shaping also requires skilled iron work by the tailor and differentiates a bench-made garment from something off the rack. The ideal adult male form has some degree of V shape from waist to shoulders, and the coat should in my view not conceal that. Some version of these features has characterized the "standard" Savile Row cut for some decades. In addition to the exaggerated shortness and tight fit, one of the unfortunate things about current "fashion" coats is the deliberately narrow shoulder, point-to-point. The overall effect is to suggest a pubescent boy prior to the development of adult secondary sex characteristics, or perhaps an androgynous one. This is the masculine equivalent of the gamine or waif look popular with designers of women's wear, and has equally deleterious consequences for elegance.
Think for a moment about body coats and the silhouette they are meant to project. A definite emphasis on the taper from shoulder to waist.
Everyone has their own preferences; it seems to me that the impulse toward the Ivy-type sack, especially a fully cut one, expresses a strong aversion to the appearance of "trying too hard" to seem fit, or attractive to women, or "stylish." A preference for a kind of exaggerated understatement. Certainly this is consistent with established ideals of American masculinity in the 1950s. I think this approach can be taken too far, just as its opposite can. One of its risks, as in a suit like Balenciaga's linked below, is that it can focus attention on all that admittedly gorgeous rippling cloth, rather than on the man wearing it, as part of the frame that Michael has often referred to. From a distance, before the observer is close enough for the lapel V, shirt, and tie to frame the face, the silhouette should correspond to and frame the figuration of the whole man. Michael's own jackets seem to me to be good examples of this, while speaking as they do with a light Italian accent.
Think for a moment about body coats and the silhouette they are meant to project. A definite emphasis on the taper from shoulder to waist.
Everyone has their own preferences; it seems to me that the impulse toward the Ivy-type sack, especially a fully cut one, expresses a strong aversion to the appearance of "trying too hard" to seem fit, or attractive to women, or "stylish." A preference for a kind of exaggerated understatement. Certainly this is consistent with established ideals of American masculinity in the 1950s. I think this approach can be taken too far, just as its opposite can. One of its risks, as in a suit like Balenciaga's linked below, is that it can focus attention on all that admittedly gorgeous rippling cloth, rather than on the man wearing it, as part of the frame that Michael has often referred to. From a distance, before the observer is close enough for the lapel V, shirt, and tie to frame the face, the silhouette should correspond to and frame the figuration of the whole man. Michael's own jackets seem to me to be good examples of this, while speaking as they do with a light Italian accent.
I'm with Couch. If you look at Savile Row houses with a military or equestrian heritage - Dege, Huntsman, Welsh & Jefferies, for instance - their standard cut features strong shoulders, suppressed waist and flared skirt. Other houses may tone that down to some degree but even the softies generally go for some waist suppression. That's not fashion, it's Savile Row, take it or leave it.
Yes, I agree with this assessment. Well put.Everyone has their own preferences; it seems to me that the impulse toward the Ivy-type sack, especially a fully cut one, expresses a strong aversion to the appearance of "trying too hard" to seem fit, or attractive to women, or "stylish."
Trying too hard and appearing stylish are really to be avoided in conservative business circles, particularly in America. Sprezzatura ala Americana. Conservative Business Dress (CBD) as our sorely missed friend Manton - Antongiavanni - called it.
If you've ever been to a cocktail reception with sacks, while wearing a sharp SR suit, no matter how conservatively accessorized, you'll know what I mean. You don't fit.
But apart from the weaponizatiopn of business wear, and all of the subliminal tribal and culturally based signals you beam to the world, and others' assessments and their own withered antennae, well, slick and sharp are deeply suspect.
But that is not my point.
My point is simply that I like a looser fitting, less shaped, rounderer coat these days. If I am being measured now , I always wear a pullover - a 1-ply pullover, so everything is cut 0.5-1 size bigger.
No tugs in the waist. No extended shoulder. No puffed chest. ::: a sack, but, hopefully a sack artfully, subtly made. A coat which will disappear from consciousness and only its sillage remains.
This probably describes a coat made for old men. Oh well, let's be kind and say wise, mature men.
In England the tailor closest to instinctually, culturally, making this silhouette is A&S.
In Italy , the master, Caraceni Roma.
Which makes me think: where are our old LL friends, among them:
Manton
SmoothJazz
Dopey
Seitelman
TTeplitz
Mafoofan
RJman
Bengal-Stripe
T4Phage
Etutee
Filangieri
Carpu65
Frederich Leighton
Slewfoot
iammatt
Voxsartoria
…and on.
I wonder if they have become too tired, too experienced, too jaded, too busy, too … whatever.
Or simply gone off on their own, keeping their own counsel, getting on with their sartorial lives, and their lives in general, to have time for LL, for writing, debating, and on and on…which is what I suspect.
I don't think that they left their interest. But rather just gone off…. I don't know.
That evolution, in and of itself is interesting.
Manton
SmoothJazz
Dopey
Seitelman
TTeplitz
Mafoofan
RJman
Bengal-Stripe
T4Phage
Etutee
Filangieri
Carpu65
Frederich Leighton
Slewfoot
iammatt
Voxsartoria
…and on.
I wonder if they have become too tired, too experienced, too jaded, too busy, too … whatever.
Or simply gone off on their own, keeping their own counsel, getting on with their sartorial lives, and their lives in general, to have time for LL, for writing, debating, and on and on…which is what I suspect.
I don't think that they left their interest. But rather just gone off…. I don't know.
That evolution, in and of itself is interesting.
UC, I respect your choices, and for myself I would agree that slick and sharp are suspect. But a SR suit without a built-up shoulder, with some drape and modest waist suppression, need be neither of those. Poole and Steed both have made such suits and jackets for me, and the relevant ones pass muster as CBD. But I take your point about tribes. Though I think these days, the nuances of acceptability between well-made conservative styles may be fading by comparison to what mass taste is turning out.
I too miss many of the friends you list. Several of them are still active on Styleforum, and I think Vox has simply directed his online energy to his tumblr and instagram feeds. At least one other on the list is about to embark on a Thoreau-inspired retreat year to a cabin in the Italian mountains. Mark Seitelman still posts here occasionally, as does Slewfoot.
The New York crew had some good times in the early days. A reunion would be fun.
I too miss many of the friends you list. Several of them are still active on Styleforum, and I think Vox has simply directed his online energy to his tumblr and instagram feeds. At least one other on the list is about to embark on a Thoreau-inspired retreat year to a cabin in the Italian mountains. Mark Seitelman still posts here occasionally, as does Slewfoot.
The New York crew had some good times in the early days. A reunion would be fun.
Not to forget my friend Giona, an erudite Italianian gentlemen who extended wonderful hospitality to me years ago in Milano….
And filangieri who shepparded me through my days in Napoli with his tailor, and my tailor, Gianni Marigliano?
Where are you all, my friends??
Going back and doing a quick search, I landed on posts of mine written over 10 years ago.
And here I am 10 years later! Writing about the SOS!!
But what the hell, it's all in good fun and amusing.
Just a frivolous, jolly pursuit shared with companionable sojourners.
Honestly, it's a bit of a jolt to see posts of mine dating back 10, and more years ago.
And I have met and dined and drank and smoked with some of the characters mentioned above.
Thinking of my wonderful lunch with iammatt in San Franciso in … well, I can't even remember when now.
And meetings with Alden in London … and Etutee, et.al., in NYC.
And Manton, SmoothJazz, Dopey, Teplitz, Seitelman. Wow. What an elegant, knowledgeable crew of gentlemen !! What a privilege.
And even the nemesis of the status quo - Greyson - who wrote on FNB, one of the finest dressed gentlemen I've come across!! I enjoyed our lunch immensely.
It's really been an exquisite journey. I miss it.
Where has everyone gone ??
Oh well, don't look back.
Onward to… what today, pocket squares ….?
And filangieri who shepparded me through my days in Napoli with his tailor, and my tailor, Gianni Marigliano?
Where are you all, my friends??
Going back and doing a quick search, I landed on posts of mine written over 10 years ago.
And here I am 10 years later! Writing about the SOS!!
But what the hell, it's all in good fun and amusing.
Just a frivolous, jolly pursuit shared with companionable sojourners.
Honestly, it's a bit of a jolt to see posts of mine dating back 10, and more years ago.
And I have met and dined and drank and smoked with some of the characters mentioned above.
Thinking of my wonderful lunch with iammatt in San Franciso in … well, I can't even remember when now.
And meetings with Alden in London … and Etutee, et.al., in NYC.
And Manton, SmoothJazz, Dopey, Teplitz, Seitelman. Wow. What an elegant, knowledgeable crew of gentlemen !! What a privilege.
And even the nemesis of the status quo - Greyson - who wrote on FNB, one of the finest dressed gentlemen I've come across!! I enjoyed our lunch immensely.
It's really been an exquisite journey. I miss it.
Where has everyone gone ??
Oh well, don't look back.
Onward to… what today, pocket squares ….?
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