English people in London?

[aston]

When I lived in New York 15 or so years ago I was quite taken by the fact that people tended to describe themselves or others by their heritage. Thus, Irish American, Italian American, Native American etc. Coming to the UK soon?

[Dr T]

As always - very good Melcombe. I spent most of my teenage life near Eastbourne and now often have tea in Frinton.
My family seem to have been in England at least back as far as 1720 - the trail then gets difficult as some body has torn the page I need next from the Parish register : This is exactly what happened to me, I got back to 1710 only to find some rotter had tken the vital page from the Parish register.

[HristoStefanov]

Can you imagine my embarrassment, I was with a group of Russian speaking clients in London and one asked me -where do you find English people in London. More importantly they wanted to know where they could get traditional English food - my immediate thought was Simpsons in the Strand.
Still reeling from the shock of the first question I observed the entire staff of the hotel we were in were Eastern European, the Hotel I was staying in was staffed by people from South America.
So if you were in a similar situation what would your recommendations be? Am I in mortal danger of becoming extinct?

I am a young Bulgarian living in Munich, Germany and I also find it pretty odd. There are some lines of the public transport in Munich where you don't see any Germans at all. The people who have European appearance would usually speak in Russian or Serbian. And sometimes you ask yourself - where am I? Am I in Germany?

I don't want to judge this development as good or bad. But I am asking myself:
1. When was the moment of time when people were asked and decided that they prefer dealing with the demographic problem with importing labor force from abroad instead of improving the conditions and incentives for people to have children? It seems to me that politicians decided this on their own because this was the faster and easier solution.
If you don't have a productivity improvements, than you need growing population in order to achieve economic growth. And importing people is faster than growing some. So it seems that fast economic growth was more important than retaining mono cultural populations.

2. If we are anyway mixing our populations so much, than why don't we simply abolish the national states?
I mean you either have nation states like Germany where you have Germans, France where you have French ect. or you have a continent or planet without nation states with common laws and rules with population migrating wherever it wants. It seems to me odd that we want at the same time nation states and at the same time diverse populations. What is the sense of this? If you have diverse populations than remove the national nature of the state. Just have a look at the Swiss national football team. There almost no players without a migration background in it. Than why is it called Swiss national football team? Do we still need tournaments between nations? We could simply stick to the club tournaments like the Champions League. I have no problem with this. What I mean is that you either do the one thing or you do the other. If we don't value nation states anymore than let us be honest with this issue and abolish them - for example throughout Europe. Than Germany or France are not going to be nations anymore but just territories populated by people.

For sure there are some warnings regarding the multi-cultural policy of contemporary Europe. The history shows that conflicts are usually on the boundaries of cultures and ideas - Catholics Vs Protestants in the past, Christians Vs Muslims (the wars in Yugoslavia - Bosnia, Kosovo ect), Jews Vs Muslims (Palestine conflict), Hindu Vs Muslims (India - Pakistan conflicts), inside Islam - Shia Vs Sunni. So we can't be sure that the policy of mixing is not going to plant the roots of civil wars in Europe for the future generations. It is not xenophobia to acknowledge the existence of such risks and to ask if we as a society really want to risk or not.

[Man at C&A]

I don't want to judge this development as good or bad.

Whilst I hate to veer away from the tailoring, both your points can be defined to a single point of time and it is the signing of the Treaty of Maastricht on the 7th February 1992. The EU Project is a project to abolish the old order of countries and to create a new superstate.

[Melcombe]

I don't want to judge this development as good or bad.

Whilst I hate to veer away from the tailoring, both your points can be defined to a single point of time and it is the signing of the Treaty of Maastricht on the 7th February 1992. The EU Project is a project to abolish the old order of countries and to create a new superstate.

That's correct. The impetus was however the vision of the founding fathers of the European Coal & Steel Community.

Ive got to make an admission - I'm not a great fan of the nation state. Plenty of good things came out of the 18th & 19th Centuries but nationalism wasn't one of them. Up to that point an individual's loyalties tended to be directed either by feudal or civic obligations or religious affiliation (I'm not so mad about that one either).

Whatever anyone's view about the current incarnation of the EU, it is a pretty remarkable project by any standards, at least in the scale of its ambition. I do feel empathetic with those who were probably in their 60s at the end of WW2 who looked back at 30 years' devastation of Europe and, undoubtedly, severe personal losses. They must have thought that there was a better way of co-existing, and the idea of a supra-national non-nationalist state was plainly a logical answer, even if it did not fire the innate patriotic instincts of the participants (Im guessing that came as a relief).

The EU is a construct of the head not the heart. I was inspired to my views by my old history teacher who had been involved in the immediate postwar reconstruction (famine relief, more like) efforts in Germany. Although a quintessential Englishman, his promise to us was that we would live in a Europe where national boundaries would be looked back on as an absurd anachronism and the values of the Enlightenment would wash into every corner of a technocratic state that ran from Malta to the Arctic Circle, the Caspian to Cadiz.

For my part, I didn't really appreciate the rationale for his anti-nationalism until I went back to university as a postgrad in my 30s. On my course, more than half the students were from Commonwealth countries, particularly Pakistan, Singapore and the Caribbean states. We all had a very similar level of education, were of similar age and all had similar professional / academic ambitions.

I found (to my initial surprise) that I had significantly more in common with my contemporaries than just the reason for being at that university. Much more broadly our outlook, interests and attitude were largely indistinguishable, and certainly more aligned than with those of many of my own countrymen.

At that time I experienced something of an epiphany. The fact that we held different passports and paid taxes under different national insurance numbers just appeared, well, ridiculous. And nationalism as some kind of an excuse to kill people is as close to a secular evil as one can get.

Since then I continue to experience the same in Europe and I continue to see a remarkable ever closer alignment among the attitudes of young people - and largely expressed in (perfect) English.

I don't know if the European Project is derailed, but my suspicion is that it is merely pausing for breath - even so far as the UK is concerned. I strongly suspect that the dominant demographics in 10 years' time will charge back towards integration, the economic motivation will probably grow and grow. We'll see.

If you are reading this outside of the UK, you might not appreciate how divisive the issue of Brexit is here. The emotions and energies it is releasing are quite shocking and truly, worryingly remarkable - on both sides of the argument. Statistically the vote remains fairly evenly split. The furore (struggling with a suitable adjective here) is still not so far short of violence; I never, ever thought I would see anything like it here.

Interesting times.

Regards

David

[couch]

Excellent post. From the point of view of a visitor who lives Stateside, I observe much the same, and empathize. I suspect your optimism about economic drivers toward integration will, however, depend to some degree on the negotiated terms of the final Brexit. London as a financial capital, and to some extent as a safe haven for investing in hard assets by non-British nationals (I believe even four years ago 60% of metro London real estate was non-British owned)—and thus by extension a source of wealth for the national economy—may be altered depending on the ultimate terms. On the other hand, this might simply renew the drive for integration in the other direction as more British want to work in Frankfurt or Paris (or Moscow), etc.

As many have observed, the dark forces (I don't refer to the legitimate drawbacks of current arrangements) released by calling the Brexit question have parallels to those unleashed in our own presidential election campaign, for many of the same basic reasons. Not fun.

Preserving and celebrating local traditions such as artisanal skills and products against the homogenizing influence of globalization, while at the same time rejecting the intolerant and chauvinistic qualities of nativism, is a nice challenge.

[davidhuh]

Gentlemen,

very interesting thoughts here. As a Swiss I'm outside but in the middle of it .

I have the impression that things went too fast for many people, especially people above 50. And when you let people vote, they sometimes mark an own goal. We made such experiences in my country. It may be new for the UK. In the long run, it will be a learning experience for Europeans and make them stronger.

Cheers, David

[Concordia]

It has been a learning experience for everybody. As a northern US-American, I was not brought up to admire the South's willingness to secede, but I nevertheless would have trouble feeling comfortable being subject to the nameless bureaucrats in Brussels if I were in Europe today. This in spite of its useful roles in economic development and generally keeping peace.

It is also a fact that until 1865, large pockets of the US felt much as Europe does today-- with Americans cherishing lots of local loyalties while having trouble understanding their relationship with a distant central government. There was actually a short period of time between 1812-1815 when a vocal minority (or the most vocal segment of the majority) in New England advocated the same course of action that southerners used to create the short-lived Confederacy 40 years later.

I'd imagine that the current election season on this side of the Pond has been an eye-opener for many Europeans as well, as they re-think their parents' and grand-parents' responses to events before the last world war.

[hectorm]

Statistically the vote remains fairly evenly split.

For better or worse, the vote has already been taken. And we can´t go on retaking it until we get the result we want.
Regarding opinions I´m not sure they are evenly split but the point is irrelevant if they do not materialize in actual voting (at least in a free society).

[Aristide]

Which begs the question: what is an Englishman? Born in England? (and residing in England?). Causcasian? Born outside of England to "English" parents. Or, rather, is it simply a function of citizenship? Or is it, to coin a phrase, "I don't know what an Englishman is, but I know one when I see one". That aside, there are some very well-expressed and thought-provoking sentiments here.

[Melcombe]

Which begs the question: what is an Englishman? Born in England? (and residing in England?). Causcasian? Born outside of England to "English" parents. Or, rather, is it simply a function of citizenship? Or is it, to coin a phrase, "I don't know what an Englishman is, but I know one when I see one". That aside, there are some very well-expressed and thought-provoking sentiments here.

No "bloodline" or passport required in my view : It's all a matter of attitude and inclination.

Classic example : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_McDonald In my top 10 Greatest Living Englishmen.

And tweed, good shoes and tea.

[Dr T]

I'm on the lookout for a good and relaxed afternoon tea in Mayfair/St James. I been to most of the obvious places - can anyone help with some suggestions. We will have with us two teenage girls.

[andy57]

I'm on the lookout for a good and relaxed afternoon tea in Mayfair/St James. I been to most of the obvious places - can anyone help with some suggestions. We will have with us two teenage girls.

Fortnum's is the most obvious choice, so I assume you've been there. A rather more non-obvious choice is Duke's Hotel. In addition to the famous bar, the hotel has a small area where afternoon tea and cream tea is served. It is quiet and relaxed, and very refined. Also, the Cavendish Hotel, on Jermyn Street, offers an excellent afternoon tea.

[Concordia]

I like Duke's a lot. It is just small and eccentric enough to keep prices lower than they might be. And the staff is very good.

The other greatest hits on hotels for tea, which might or might not be as good: Connaught, Browns, the Ritz. There is probably some little boutique in the north of Soho that kills all of them, though. A lot depends on what impression you want to leave on the teenagers.

[andy57]

The other greatest hits on hotels for tea, which might or might not be as good: Connaught, Browns, the Ritz. There is probably some little boutique in the north of Soho that kills all of them, though. A lot depends on what impression you want to leave on the teenagers.

I don't know why I forgot about the Ritz. I haven't had tea there since 1988. At that time they had a strict dress code for gentlemen: a jacket and tie was required. My first wife and I were with two other couples, one of whom was staying at the hotel. It was late May, so not cold, and I went in wearing a Burberry over just a shirt and, I guess, trousers that were not jeans. So, the doorman kindly offered me a tie and a jacket. The tie was fine, but the jacket was at least a couple of sizes too small. I wore it anyway, not wishing to spoil the afternoon for the rest of the group. But I certainly looked quite ridiculous. I offered to wear the tie and keep my Burberry on, but the staff insisted on the jacket. So, I complied.

Claridges, of course, is also another excellent spot for tea. It was about a year ago that we had a cream tea for dessert one evening. A delightful end to an excellent meal.