A wretched development...

[exigent]

I had the misfortune of attending yet another ghastly "formal" dinner last night. Have any of you gents noticed this alarming new trend that has merry idiots wearing black double-soled brogues with evening clothes? In this particular crowd of clueless upwardly mobile types, I counted no less than thirty guys pinned to the ground by massive clod-hoppers. If ever there was a sign that the end of civilization is upon us....

[TVD]

I guess there was no dancing after dinner. Otherwise these gentlemen would have to be either exceedingly skilled, or very apologetic and ultimately lonely.

[stbdtack]

I'm not surprised -- most men are totally ignorant when it comes to dressing -- look around you every day. I live and work near Washington DC -- and you'd think, along with New York, Boston and a few other places, the majority of business and professional people would know how to dress -- NOT!! I've even seen wingtips with a tux. . .

I've learned to just ignore these things because in my militant days I always failed when I tried to gently correct... After all -- if everybody was as smart as us it'd be hard to get ahead. . .

[Mark Seitelman]

Attitudes of the typical, American male:

"What, you mean I have to wear a tux?"

"What, I have to wear a tux shirt?"

"What, I even have to wear different type of shoes? Why cannot I wear my penny loafers?"

[westender]

To a generation that takes it's styling tips from Queer Eye our standards are seldom going to be of more than passing interest. This is a battle that was fought and lost a long time ago.

Even without knowing what is correct black double-soled brogues must surely feel wrong. Black - good, brogues - I can live with if I must, but double-soled? If a formal dinner is about elegance then how do double-soles make you feel elegant? The answer is that these are probably the only black shoes they own and we ought to be grateful that no one was wearing black sneakers.

[TVD]

Let's not be unfair to Seattle (if I recall correctly that this was your current location, exigent). The UK is nearly as bad. At any black tie event for every one in pumps, and two in patent oxfords there are ten in black calf toe cap oxfords and at least ten in full brogues. This is even the case at Glynderbourne or Grange Park in the summer where one would expect those present somewhat more civilised.

As long as a worldwide agreement is not reached that those in the know will politely but firmly offer their advice to the ignoramuses present.

I always marvel how Balzac, Stendhal, Dumas, Maupassant etc. splendidly described the young man arraived in Paris who was excluded from polite society because his coat was not cut comme il faut. Or the young man in a hurry seeking shelter in some doorway during a downpour because he could not risk to ruin his only set of elegant clothes. Obviously all but a miniscule part of society today has lost its willingness if not to discern such differences, than at least to act on them (by excluding the offender). Maybe that is a good thing for inclusiveness and value relativism. It is lethal for elegance.

[exigent]

Thoughtful comments, gentlemen--though coldly depressing in their accuracy. Honestly, I despair of the state of Western civilization.

TVD: I must admit that you are right about the fusion we are now experiencing: Seattle is God-awful, to be sure, but Britain is suffering an inexorable downhill slide, as well, and so are France, Italy and Spain...the list goes on. I shan't be in the "Emerald City" much longer, thankfully, but further disappointment surely waits around the bend, since devolution began long ago, as Westender correctly points out. Funny how Mark Seitelman's scenario seemed to play out before my very eyes. And sad beyond measure that these rubes were simply rotten with unearned self-confidence--makes a fellow want to scream into the darkness!

[Incroyable]

Yes, I had posted a previous topic about how people never wear gloves or anything of that nature anymore to firmal events.

I susect there were a fair amount of people in notch lapel as well.

[JLibourel]

Double-soled brogues! How utterly deplorable--the kind of thing you might expect from someone trying to pass off a black bow-tie (pre-tied, of course) with a dark suit for "black tie"! I would be curious to see what our real mavens would set as appropriate footgear for a black tie event. I note that some men of taste loathe patent leather. Otherwise, does this not leave us pumps and plain-toe oxfords in both patent leather and highly-polished black calfskin and, at least in one's own home, velvet slippers?

[exigent]

Yes, I had posted a previous topic about how people never wear gloves or anything of that nature anymore to firmal events.

I susect there were a fair amount of people in notch lapel as well.

Incroyable as it may seems, there were exactly two fellows in the entire joint wearing peak lapels, and tragically enough, the piano player was one--I was the other, bien sur, which rather depressingly brings to mind a new take on the old "don't confuse the poor blighter with the waiter" scenario.


Those are the right choices, Jan. I like boned calf pumps and close-fitting plain-toe oxfords, but patent leather is of course appropriate. And a gent can certainly receive his guests at home wearing monogramed or crested velvet slippers, though I have always found the habit rather precious....

[RWS]

One of the leading charities in the city nearest me -- a city once known as the most refined in the country -- has long held a ball as its chief fund-raiser. Over the years, the gathering has declined greatly: full evening dress has completely disappeared, and even the dinner jacket seems imperilled: "creative black tie" is plainly printed on the shiny invitations, in an attempt to attract the young and unrefined, and shows in the ubiquitous notch lapel and patent-leather brogue (I hadn't known that such a thing existed); dancing, real dancing, has long since been replaced by free-style shaking; and kindly warmth, by back-slapping and guffaws. I prefer to send a check and forego the trial of attendance.

Indeed, I find the only pleasing formal or semi-formal gatherings nowadays to be entertaining at my home or friends', and an occasional gala of one or two hereditary societies. And this, I fear, is no different on either side of the Atlantic.

[Concordia]

Footnote on notch vs. peak for formal wear: my father (newly relocated to greater Phoenix) is on the verge of replacing the dinner jacket he had made in Cincinnati lo these 40 years ago. He asked for some hints, which I forwarded on. His reply I found interesting. Turns out that in his area, he has come to associate peak lapels with slightly cheesy rental suits. The better-made ones that are in evidence at the Opera (about the only place he would ever dress for out there) have notch lapels.

So we'll see what sort of atrocity he abets as a result.

[Étienne]

The better-made ones that are in evidence at the Opera (about the only place he would ever dress for out there) have notch lapels.

Why not consider a shawl collar ?

[Concordia]

The old one was a shawl (done properly, with exactly the right width and "knuckle" near the bottom). I believes he thinks it's a bit old-fashioned. Either that, or there aren't nice RTW options for that in Phoenix.

[Incroyable]

I once saw a man wear a sequined suit to the opera and another man who had taken the occasion to don some sort of a cheap top hat with a shawl-lapel dinner jacket and Florsheim type dress boots in a shiny corrected grain affair.