ongoing projects, including linen and Centofanti

[Guest]

I probably have taken more advantage of Alden's Minimum Wardrobe than other people, because more than other people, I am building a new wardrobe. As I have described before, this has required cuts and changes to suit the local fashion environment in Philadelphia, which some of you regard as an oxymoron. Criticism of Philadelphia is not entirely undeserved, nor is criticism of hospital fashion. In any event, that is where I make my money....

The light blue linen suit is just too "in-your-face" for my workplace, a mishap that I could not have known from the swatch I evaluated. In any event, I am sending a Holland and Sherry shark skin (10 oz), a Smith 12 oz fresco, and a Bill navy linen to Romania to be made into 3 button role 1 suits like the light blue linen suit. All will be partially lined (lower back panel absent). The only changes I asked for were 1) that the shoulder seam be better hidden, perhaps diagonal or behind the shoulder, 2) that the pick stitching be done with finer thread, and 3) that the tailor attempt more waist suppression. I did not like the shoulder but after a lot of thought I realized the problem wasn't padding or prominence, it was the seam, which for some reason the tailor put in front and straight.

Centofanti (who was just profiled in Robb Report, along with Trabelza of Los Angeles, of whom Centofanti thinks a lot, they went to school together) is making me a walking coat with Ultra-Suede collar and piping on the pockets, from a North Highland tweed 600, which appeared to be their heaviest. I am considering a two piece pinstripe from 16 oz fabric for him. He tells me now he can make the Neopolitan shoulder with curtaining, and that he did not do this with his last Neopolitan shoulder he made me because he says, most people think it looks like a mistake!

[Mark Seitelman]

Dr. B, a little "Dutch uncle" advice:

If you have to give too much direction to the tailor you're going to end-up with a mess. Yes, he may be able to move the shoulder seam, but it might make the back too long.

The best tailoring experience is where you give almost no direction to the tailor regarding how to cut and make the suit. An experienced tailor has made many coats, and if he is any good, then he should know what he is doing. The problem is that there are very few talented tailors. I don't think that you have to tell Centofanti where and how to place a seam.

I would recommend sending one cloth to Romania, get the suit, and wear it for a few months before you jump into the next project.

Good luck!

[Guest]

Remember, I already had him make a suit, the light blue one. If he duplicates that one exactly, I will be happy. Is he as good as someone like Centofani? No. But Centofanti's CMT price for 2 piece suit: $2000. Negrila's price: $163. I am not saying that Centofanti's price is unfair, it isn't and it is worthwhile, vis that I am still ordering stuff from him. But a middle class, man-without-means guy such as myself gets some cheap stuff, some expensive stuff, and some medium stuff, depending on what is important to me at the time. I am not going to trust a pin stripe or pattern to Negrila. But the fabrics I sent should look very nice when done up.

[Mark Seitelman]

One question that I would have for your Romanian tailor is how the "innards" are made. Does he use the best canvas, padding, pocketing, thread? Are the collar and lapel and other points hand sewn? Does he use Bemberg lining? Will the garment last the same amount of time as a Centofanti?

If the construction does not equal the better makers, it won't last as long. The coat may lose its shape after a couple of seasons and cleanings. However, at this price you can afford to have a more disposable wardrobe. In other words, if you get three years out of the suit at $163, you can afford to turnover your wardrobe every season. There's nothing wrong with this approach.

About 10 years ago Conde Nast Traveler or a similar magazine had a reporter buy a suit at Anderson & Sheppard and a much cheaper copy at a Hong Kong tailor. Initially, the Hong Kong suit was judged to be a better buy and better made. However, the author revisited the suits 5 years later. He reported that the Hong Kong suit had wore out. However, the A & S suit was still going strong and looked almost new. In other words, you get what you pay for.

But, if you're happy with your suits, go for it!!!

[Guest]

We are talking about Romania. They do not import anything. His buttons are poor, I do not know about the rest. But since I am sending him the best materials in the world, and since material is what determines most of the longevity of a garment (and how much you clean it, more is worse), I am sure I will get plenty of use out of the garments. 3 years sounds like an underestimation. But of course, we will have to talk again in five to really know! So far as that comparison, I think it is next to worthless. If I were to send some of those Brora thornproofs to Kong Kong or whereever to be made into garments, they will be around for not years, but decades.

[Guest]

Negrila is cheaper than Centofanti not because Centofanti is better known (my beloved American tailor is not), nor because Negrila takes shortcuts (he does not, for example I walked in on him finishing the handpicking himself). He is cheaper because Romania is a poor country.

No one but the cogniscenti and those in the trade know Centofanti. Negrila is the best known tailor in Bucharest, which means in all Romania. He is "the one to beat" there.

Romanians are capable of great craftsmanship. For example, my Romanian leather goods are as good as Hermes for example, if not better, and they were made to order.

Price and quality do not have a direct relationship unless one compares apples with apples. Besides, even by that measure one would think Centofanti is inferior to almost all other American tailors because he is among the least expensive. According to his peers, he is one of the best.

Were I to go to Mr Ned or LS, then I am going to someone who has to cut corners. But in Romania, there are people who think Negrila is grandiose and greedy to charge so much as $163 dollars per suit, and I am not making that up.

[TVD]

Before WWII Romania had a reputation for a somewhat vainglorious pursuit of pseudo-French elegance. And arrogance as well. I guess Caucescu changed a lot of that. I am certain that perfect craftsmanship can be had, the question is at what human (i.e.the client's time) rather than financial cost.

I assume you asked Centofanti or some other contact in the trade to provide you with all the trimmings (linings, horsehair, padding, yarns, silk threads, buttons, melton, waxed linen button thread (or at least a beeswax candle), button hole thread, the thick round silk thread that goes underneath the button hole thread.

And from what you wrote Negrila is a cutter of talent and pride who will work hard to better whatever Western garnment you show him. I know this sounds mad and risky, but why don't you leave one of your Centofanti suits with him to illustrate some of the details you desire? If he is a good cutter, he will match it on detail and beat it on fit.

By the by, do you speak Romanian, or does he spek English?

[Guest]

Those are interesting points. I think Romania has not changed much, so far as "the pursuit of vainglorious pseudo-French elegance." But you would have to know what you are looking for to observe it, because they are poor.

So far as trimmings, no, Negrila provides all the trimmings. I am trying to send him nicer buttons.

And remember, I was there, and I had a Centofanti jacket (from the Cloth Club POW fabric) with me and I showed him what I wanted. I do not think he is such a fabulous cutter. The suit he made for me was hardly elegant. It was competent. And he speaks absolutely no English or French. I speak Romanian, as does my wife.

But, remember, Rich Chai in Philadelphia who does full bespoke, could not in the end make a pair of pants that fit me, no matter how many fittings he had. Negrila I recall got it the first time, and has made several trousers for me which fit perfectly and look great (I had trousers made through the mail since I left from Barbaris fabrics). The good thing about the Romanians is that you can say many things about them, but they are not lazy. Both tailors I used did not hesitate to revise their work at the second fitting.

[TVD]

Call up Richard James Weldon and ask for their current catalogue, maybe they could e-mail you a PDF version. You will find all the trimmings you need in there.

I would defintely supply everything that has to be imported. Seen any silk worms in Romamia recently? Well, so the silk threads go on your list, or they will be either polyester or inferior quality imported stuff. Your tailor simply could not afford for two Gütermann button hole silks at USD3 a piece plus some hideous Romanian import duties plus supernormal profits for three middlemen/importers/wholesalers to cut into his USD163 price.

What about horsehair and all this. Savile Row relies on a well honed system of manufacturers and stockists, where everybody knows what they are doing. The question of "are you putting proper horsehair into my jacket?", or "don't use foam shoulder pads!" simply does not pose itself. But here it does, because the domestic Romanian supplier of these things may have been expropriated/shot/flattened like the rest of Bukarest ages ago. So you need to go through the whole process, together with the tailor, and ask what are you using now, what would you want to use under optimal circumstances, and how are we going to get it to you. By the end of it, you will know more about tailoring than you ever wished. It will also cost you an arm and a leg, because these trimmings are not cheap. But maybe you will be surprised on occasion that some of the things that are difficult to get and very expensive in our Western high labour cost environment will be of good quality and plentiful supply over there.

Finally, the cut. Now, for some strange reason you took down the picture of the linen suit, so I cannot comment on detail, but I do not recall any outright mistakes. Being surrounded for fifty years by drab communist fashion, which recently has been enriched by some hideous high end fashion forward stuff worn by the local mafia is hardly a fertile ground for honing a cutter's eye. You cannot blame him for not having spent a lifetime observing the finer details of the London cut, and the Naples cut, and maybe some US East Coast thrown in for good measure.

Instead, show him pictures of what you want to achieve, e.g. the skirt and high gorged hour glass shape of Savile Row, or the fluidity of the roll of a Naples lapel (there are some beautiful examples on the Attolini website), or a picture of Edward VII shooting (where his perfectly fitting jacket does not seem to restrict him at all - no idea how the shoulder and sleeve were conbstructed, but I wish I knew). If you just see a pained response, because of the additional work, leave and never come back. If on the contrary he starts telling you how it could be done, good. And if by chance he correctly remarks of what could be improved on the examples you showed him, you won the lottery.

Do leave a jacket with which you are absolutely happy. There is a considerable difference between a fleeting look and being able to examine the detail, especially when stuck with some particular problem.

Finally, please remember that finance is only half the bill. Negrila knows you come to him because he is cheaper than your US tailor. But I think he will really try his best if he also knows that you appreciate his work, and that you think he can do better than any other tailor. That little appreciation and thank you makes all the difference. Be demanding, but also generous and grateful. Otherwise you become just a problematic profit centre. Not a way I would wish any tailor to think of me.

[Guest]

For 163 dollars I can accept whatever trimmings he wants to dish out. After all, no one here is taking apart their coats to check what their tailor put inside! And, again, his price is HIGH by Romanian standards, not cut-rate. Most important, the fabrics are the best in the world (Smith fresco, Holland sharkskin, Bill Irish linen).

If he duplicates my linen suit exactly and makes no changes (though I have requested a few), I will be very happy. With this sort of arrangement I think you have to be realistic and not set the bar too high, or you are bound to be disappointed. The merchant/artisan will dump you and stop returning your calls. If I want to raise the bar, I can do so with Centofanti, who is 15 minutes away by car and available for multiple fittings.

By the way, whatever I say, Romanians always, always compare themselves to westerners unfavorably, they need no help from me. And that is a historical tradition dating to at least the last century. Of course, with these remarks on their trimmings and cut-rate tailoring (though I have repeatedly said the price is high by their standards), one can see that visitors merely eccentuate the feelings.

[bry2000]

I agree with TVD and Mark. It is really not enough to supply high quality cloth and buttons and expect to improve the results exponentially. The innards matter as much, if not more. No, I don't take apart my suits to discern what type of canvas or shoulder padding was used. But the fact that these materials are of high quality is reflected in how the garment looks, wears, and ages.

This is all very amusing to some degree. It does have the potential to be disasterous. But if you have the time and the patience, I guess the money saved could be worth it. Having experimented with some of the lower cost custom tailors in NY, I have concluded that I really did not save any money at all in the end. That applies also to my experience with a lower priced English tailor, who advertises himself a "Savile Row Master Tailor," but who is really a quack. The 800 or so pounds I saved with him vs. going wtih Pooles or Dege were not worth having a suit that will be buried in the deep recesses of my closet.

[Guest]

There is a major difference between the cut-rate tailors you found in NYC or London, and my Romanian tailor. They are cut-rate because they cut corners. They have to, because the labor rate does not change in a particular market and one cannot make artisanal work more efficient, by its very nature.

My tailor is not cut-rate. He is the best there is in Romania. No person there would think him the "less expensive choice," in fact the opposite. The low cost of the suit is not because he cuts corners, but because the labor rate there is so low.

I am not sure why you are speculating about disaster. I have already had him make me a suit and two pairs of pants, and I was very happy with them all (my unfortunate choice of fabric is not his fault). I was also happy with the two suits and three pairs of trousers I had his competitor make me. None of these garments was less than very handsome and comfortable. The limitation was the fabric, which was either ersatz Barbaris or Barbaris' least expensive fabrics manufactured in Romania.

Wasn't there someone in our Lounge who had his Korean tailor make him jackets, to general amazement and approval, a while back? I think the concept is similar, except dealing with my Romanian tailor is easier because he makes reference to a western style vocabulary, always a problem for eastern tailors.

[bry2000]

Actually, the lower priced tailors I have used in NY and London were not cheaper because they cut corners. The product was not very good because they were not very good tailors, cutters, designers, etc. The two lower priced NY tailors I used gave me multiple fittings (probably anywhere from 4 to 7 or whatever was necessary). If I were to have 12 more fittings on those suits, the fit would not have improved much because they were limited in their skill. I also believed that the innards that they used were cheaper. But that is how your Romanian tailor is cutting corners as well. My former NY tailors charged an amount that was appropriate for them in light of their rent and labor, neither of which was very high for NY standards.

As for my crappy London tailor, I doubt the guy made much money on me given that he must have tried fitting me a dozen times over a two year period. The suit did not work out because that particular tailor is a terrible cutter and pattern maker, not because he cut that many corners.

You may be the lucky one who has found a reasonably decent tailor to make wearable garments at a discounted price. But going through your adventures, where you have to suppy your tailor with thread, canvassing, etc. is not for everyone. It is certainly not for me.

[Guest]

I am not trying to get anyone to "defect." My Romanian tailor is not for everyone, not least because he speaks no English or French and only accepts payment in cash.

I wish you would not assume that Negrila is cut-rate because of the difference in labor costs. He may not be the greatest tailor in the world, but this would be in spite of his low cost, not because of it.

[RWS]

Mark Seitelman, TVD, and bry2000 have all given you good advice, David. I followed similar guidance (with experience gained working with a variety of American, Savile Row, and Hongkong tailors) in working with two tailors -- one of whom is reputed to be the finest in South America -- in Buenos Aires. I did pay particular attention to the hidden parts of each suit, and I am satisfied that the well-cut garments will please me for years (though I'd want changes in styling were I to order from either firm again).

In the end, though I did save a bit of money (nothing so dramatic as your $163 suit, of course), the price isn't hugely different from a comparable on the American market; certainly no such savings as to fund the cost and time of a flight down and residence for a month in the Paris of the South. But, then, saving money wasn't really the point of buying abroad, was it?