Our Good Tailor
I remember a televised interview many years ago by a French journalist with one of the great film directors of the last century, Mr. John Ford. The journalist asked, "Why did you make "The Searchers", Mr. Ford? What source of inspiration did you find deep within yourself to make this epic?" Ford perturbed avoided looking the reporter in the eyes and hesitated a good while before responding "Sir, I made this film with the profound inspiration of putting some food on the table of my family!" Let’s not forget that our artist, the tailor, often has the same kind of inspiration and objective.
In order to put meat on the table, the tailor has his client base that can be divided more or less into two groups: the easy ones and the difficult ones. His fee is the same for both groups but the time and effort needed to satisfy them are very different. Lets say that ninety per cent of his clientele is more or less easy. The easy clients are either very easy to fit or not very demanding. Of the remaining ten per cent of difficult clients only a small percentage is difficult because of an advanced level of sartorial education or good taste. Most are just plain difficult without any justifying or redeeming sartorial or aesthetic value.
The easy client comes to custom tailoring asking the tailor for a suit that is good for his work environment, one that is not too long, like the one his father wears, one that will please his wife and mistress, one with slanted ticket pockets etc. The tailor, wincing inside, but smiling on the outside thinking about the hungry mouths around his table, takes measurements, gives a bit of advice and assures the client he will be very happy with his suit. Because he has not received any more specific insight, specifications or instructions, he takes down his standard cut pattern and adjusts it for a fitting. After a fitting or two, he is able to deliver the garment to the delight of the client, to his banker's delight and to the delight of all those hungry mouths around the table. Life is great.
With the time he has saved working with the easy client, the tailor can return to work on those difficult, fussy and demanding ones. To accomplish beautiful works for these Gentlemen requires every bit of the time he has squirreled away from the easy ones. Now he has to concentrate on the real challenge. The great tailor will be motivated by passionate attachment and pride in his art to do so, because, in reality, there are no real commercial reasons for him to do so.
Finding a tailor who has both, the talent and the will to create beautiful garments is not easy. But they are to be found. And the educated client knows how to recognize and celebrate their works equally for the talent and the will manifest in them.
If the good tailor sought to make of every easy client an enlightened and demanding one, a Niven, Grant or Astaire, it would be a bit counter productive for him, not to mention an enormous waste of precious time and energy. Time and energy he would not then be able to offer his most interesting and creative clients for those with taste, or the bothersome ones who have none. And would the easy client really feel better off in a sartorial treasure, a double breasted fit for a David Niven? I am not all that sure he would even notice the difference.
It is not the job of the tailor to be a John the Baptist of elegance, converting souls and putting them on the true road towards aesthetic redemption. It would be nice. But it isn't reality.
The option of elegant sartorial expression is the wearer's responsibility not the crafters.
Our good tailor
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richardcharles
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:08 pm
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Michael, I have found two dynmics at work here. The first is that a good tailor elevates his game if you will for a client that he knows appreciates and demands the finest of work and is cognizant of the details. I also understand that if he did this or delt with this for all his clients his work would be infinitely more complicated and difficult. The second dynamic is the client who knows some but is incapable of communicating exactly that which he seeks. This leaves the tailor to guess which at best is a 50-50 proposition.I am sure that the client who smiles, writes out the check and leaves is a welome sight after dealing with the first two types.
May I add that sometimes, purely out of pity and a good heart, a tailor will make sure that a sartorial moron looks sublime. Somehow to compensate for life's injustice. The greatest tailors I knew were all strong willed characters, with a fierce and unrelentingly stubborn streak, even capable of cruelty at times, but equally prone to humane gestures on an epic scale.
As always in life, one should be loved, or feared. In between there is nothing but ill treatment and inferiority.
As always in life, one should be loved, or feared. In between there is nothing but ill treatment and inferiority.
Yes, the challenging customers can be those whom nature has condemned to deformities that require the intervention of a magician as much as a tailor. And the other challenges are those well educated clients who see and understand the details. I should add that seeing and knowing the details does not guarantee that they will be either well dressed or elegantly dressed. It only means that they know and understand the details. What they do with the garment once the details have been wrought is another subject.Michael, I have found two dynmics at work here. The first is that a good tailor elevates his game if you will for a client that he knows appreciates and demands the finest of work and is cognizant of the details. I also understand that if he did this or delt with this for all his clients his work would be infinitely more complicated and difficult. The second dynamic is the client who knows some but is incapable of communicating exactly that which he seeks. This leaves the tailor to guess which at best is a 50-50 proposition.I am sure that the client who smiles, writes out the check and leaves is a welome sight after dealing with the first two types.
The difficult or "nightmare" client is the one who is demanding but not sure of his taste, not sure of what he wants from the artisan. This client is a moving target for the tailor and can represent a frustrating and costly waste of time and energy. Many tailors will respectfully decline to take on such a customer or find a graceful way to have a full book when he comes calling again.
Perhaps I've missunderstood, but this thread makes me uncomfortable. If I'm paying $5000 for a suit I want the tailor to both listen to and educate me.
As for communicating "what I want" and being a "moving target". You're the expert, not me. I can, at best, give you examples of suits I like the look of, or a flavour I'm going for, then during fitting give my feelings on how things are going. But like any creative field it's an important part of the tailors job to take the brief and work out what the client means, not just what they said. I guess you're talking about the person who gives contradictory direction and doesn't listen, in return, to the advice given?
As for communicating "what I want" and being a "moving target". You're the expert, not me. I can, at best, give you examples of suits I like the look of, or a flavour I'm going for, then during fitting give my feelings on how things are going. But like any creative field it's an important part of the tailors job to take the brief and work out what the client means, not just what they said. I guess you're talking about the person who gives contradictory direction and doesn't listen, in return, to the advice given?
Dear Ryan,
I am sure we are sorry for causing you any discomfort. It is best, however, that you be advised that the ideal working scenario you imagine is relatively rare.
Let me try to explain this in a different way. When, as a customer, you decide to build a custom home, you engage the services of an architect, a general contractor and craftsmen. They each have their competencies and their talents. You require each of them to be successful.
It is very hard for the tailor be architect, general contractor and craftsman. He can easily be a bit of each, but rarely all three. He is best when acting as a general contractor who understands the architect’s game and instructions. As customer, you are in good measure the architect. If you are a good one, you will have great clothes. If you are modestly endowed, you will have modest ones. They will be very good, but they may just lack that je ne sais quoi that makes the difference between great and modest. Spending $5000 for a great suit is entirely conceivable, dispensing with the same resources for a modest one is harder to justify.
The thing is that all good customers develop into architects over time as their eye develops. The first few ventures may be difficult while this process occurs and the fruits of these first experiences may spend an undue amount of time in the closet over time. One of the reasons thelondonlounge was created was to give first time bespeakers a place to prepare themselves for this enterprise. Some of the results from novice bespoke customers have been amazingly successful given proper preparation. Please keep your questions coming and the members here will strive to help you out.
PS. Yes the client that disrupts a tailor the most is one who doesn't listen, or constantly changes his mind and instructions, even in between fittings, because fundamentally he doesn't know what he wants. Its hard for a tailor to deal with a moving target.[/i]
I am sure we are sorry for causing you any discomfort. It is best, however, that you be advised that the ideal working scenario you imagine is relatively rare.
Let me try to explain this in a different way. When, as a customer, you decide to build a custom home, you engage the services of an architect, a general contractor and craftsmen. They each have their competencies and their talents. You require each of them to be successful.
It is very hard for the tailor be architect, general contractor and craftsman. He can easily be a bit of each, but rarely all three. He is best when acting as a general contractor who understands the architect’s game and instructions. As customer, you are in good measure the architect. If you are a good one, you will have great clothes. If you are modestly endowed, you will have modest ones. They will be very good, but they may just lack that je ne sais quoi that makes the difference between great and modest. Spending $5000 for a great suit is entirely conceivable, dispensing with the same resources for a modest one is harder to justify.
The thing is that all good customers develop into architects over time as their eye develops. The first few ventures may be difficult while this process occurs and the fruits of these first experiences may spend an undue amount of time in the closet over time. One of the reasons thelondonlounge was created was to give first time bespeakers a place to prepare themselves for this enterprise. Some of the results from novice bespoke customers have been amazingly successful given proper preparation. Please keep your questions coming and the members here will strive to help you out.
PS. Yes the client that disrupts a tailor the most is one who doesn't listen, or constantly changes his mind and instructions, even in between fittings, because fundamentally he doesn't know what he wants. Its hard for a tailor to deal with a moving target.[/i]
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tteplitzmd
I am following this topic with interest:
I have spent more than 10 years trying to evolve a jacket model that appeals to me. I have no pretensions that it would be of great interest to anyone else but me. That has been validated by several tailors who could not, or would not emulate or improve upon the model.
That said, it seems to me there are really 3 central issues at play: style, fit, and workmanship. I wold defer to any qualified tailor on fit and workmanship, but it is on the style that I have firm convictions. I would like to know of any recommendations on how to better convey this to otherwise capable and well intentioned tailors, who do not care for the "Teplitz model with precise 3 button roll." I am not immune to suggestions or recommendations from the tailor, but I prefer that the model "evolve" and not be radically transformed with one transaction.
I have spent more than 10 years trying to evolve a jacket model that appeals to me. I have no pretensions that it would be of great interest to anyone else but me. That has been validated by several tailors who could not, or would not emulate or improve upon the model.
That said, it seems to me there are really 3 central issues at play: style, fit, and workmanship. I wold defer to any qualified tailor on fit and workmanship, but it is on the style that I have firm convictions. I would like to know of any recommendations on how to better convey this to otherwise capable and well intentioned tailors, who do not care for the "Teplitz model with precise 3 button roll." I am not immune to suggestions or recommendations from the tailor, but I prefer that the model "evolve" and not be radically transformed with one transaction.
So in a way, it's likely all customers start as slightly difficult clients, particularly if they're fussy.
From a customers view point, and one that is yet to test the waters of bespoke, when first learning about something like this you will likely only have a kit bag of anecdotal likes and dislikes and perhaps some small knowledge of the finer points..
I think that wanting the "tailor to both listen to and educate me" is entirely fair. when I say "listen" I mean that I'll have some desire for the suit be it style or purpose or whatever and I may have some ideas on what that entails, be it fabric or appointments etc. I'd then expect, like a designer in any other field, the cutter to take that "brief" and analyse it. Trying to decipher what I really want from what I've said.
This is then where the education comes in. I'd expect he'd then communicate what he believes I want back to me to reinforce his understanding. Then I'd expect him to advise me on that in a respectful and honest round of broadening my understanding of what I've asked for and what points about it may or may not work for whatever reason.
Presumably unless I'm stubborn, improving on my original request and understanding, thus improving my ability to communication for next time.
Does that make sense? I don't see how the system can successfully work any other way.
From a customers view point, and one that is yet to test the waters of bespoke, when first learning about something like this you will likely only have a kit bag of anecdotal likes and dislikes and perhaps some small knowledge of the finer points..
I think that wanting the "tailor to both listen to and educate me" is entirely fair. when I say "listen" I mean that I'll have some desire for the suit be it style or purpose or whatever and I may have some ideas on what that entails, be it fabric or appointments etc. I'd then expect, like a designer in any other field, the cutter to take that "brief" and analyse it. Trying to decipher what I really want from what I've said.
This is then where the education comes in. I'd expect he'd then communicate what he believes I want back to me to reinforce his understanding. Then I'd expect him to advise me on that in a respectful and honest round of broadening my understanding of what I've asked for and what points about it may or may not work for whatever reason.
Presumably unless I'm stubborn, improving on my original request and understanding, thus improving my ability to communication for next time.
Does that make sense? I don't see how the system can successfully work any other way.
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richardcharles
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:08 pm
- Contact:
Being loosely connected with the construction industry Michael's aNALOGY RESONATES WITH ME. mY EXPERIENCES IN BOTH CLOTHING AND CONSTRUCTION ARE WHEN YOU ARE DEALING WITH PEOPLE that are very talented ideas discussed on the front end are usually warmly received. They may not be accepted for either practical or aesthetic reasons but they are vigorously discussed. The real challenge is that once the work begins failure to be clear about what you discussed and bought into in the construction industry leads to costly change orders in the world of bespoke clothing leads to agitation and consternation on the part of the craftsman. I would argue that when you commision a suit you are hiring neither a lawyer or consultant. You can't expect that level of communication. Depending on the language situation there should be functional communication and there might even be an opportunity for the craftsman to eductae you . Once the process begins lack of confidence/or insecurity about choices become a definite liability.
It has been very rightly said that a tailor combines multiple roles and talents: a salesman, a cutter/designer, a tailor/craftsman, a project manager, and finally an accountant/finance executive. There are those who easily combine all of those. The chance of finding one is about as great as meeting Leonardo da Vinci. Renaissance men are rare. Why should he concern himself with tailoring rather than running a multinational corporation?
Large tailoring houses practice a division of labour, and this should mitigate some of the problems. It may also result in a lack of flexibility because the "house style" is in fact a codified management process relating to the design of your garnment. When you start breaking the rules, where do you stop? Better not to start, which is the reason why some tailors appear inflexible. Not all companies have great management, that applies even to tailoring establishments.
My best experiences with tailors are those where I have found people who are open and responsive to my aesthetic ideas, and knowing from experience where else in their process I can expect shortcomings, I will try to help paper over the cracks. Nothing is perfect, but if you see it coming and can help avoiding the disaster, does it really matter so much?
Finally, the closest to a perfect tailor one can get, is to find an enthusiast, somebody who turned his passion into his profession. That is the true meaning of vocation. I think I am lucky enough to have found one in London, and I look forward to what will result from this relationship over the years.
Large tailoring houses practice a division of labour, and this should mitigate some of the problems. It may also result in a lack of flexibility because the "house style" is in fact a codified management process relating to the design of your garnment. When you start breaking the rules, where do you stop? Better not to start, which is the reason why some tailors appear inflexible. Not all companies have great management, that applies even to tailoring establishments.
My best experiences with tailors are those where I have found people who are open and responsive to my aesthetic ideas, and knowing from experience where else in their process I can expect shortcomings, I will try to help paper over the cracks. Nothing is perfect, but if you see it coming and can help avoiding the disaster, does it really matter so much?
Finally, the closest to a perfect tailor one can get, is to find an enthusiast, somebody who turned his passion into his profession. That is the true meaning of vocation. I think I am lucky enough to have found one in London, and I look forward to what will result from this relationship over the years.
I found that when I went to one of the larger 24 hour tailors in Hong Kong. Sam's Tailor can pull a suit together very quickly, but I found that their style inflexible to my needs.Large tailoring houses practice a division of labour, and this should mitigate some of the problems. It may also result in a lack of flexibility because the "house style" is in fact a codified management process relating to the design of your garnment.
He says he has 55 workers in 5 different workrooms pretty much around the clock. That sort of labor will definitely make things seem "codified".
I must respectfully disagree with Alden assertion that the bespeaker is the equivalent of an architect. I would say that the bespeaker is the client, the cutter is the architect, and the tailor is the contractor. To put some names to it, the bespeaker/client could be Alden, the cutter/architect could be Mahon, and the tailor/contractor is usually the unsung hero (this is also true in architecture especially in Japan where the contractors contributes significantly to the end product throught his technical expertise and passion).alden wrote:Dear Ryan,
Let me try to explain this in a different way. When, as a customer, you decide to build a custom home, you engage the services of an architect, a general contractor and craftsmen. They each have their competencies and their talents. You require each of them to be successful.
It is very hard for the tailor be architect, general contractor and craftsman. He can easily be a bit of each, but rarely all three. He is best when acting as a general contractor who understands the architect’s game and instructions. As customer, you are in good measure the architect. If you are a good one, you will have great clothes. If you are modestly endowed, you will have modest ones. They will be very good, but they may just lack that je ne sais quoi that makes the difference between great and modest. Spending $5000 for a great suit is entirely conceivable, dispensing with the same resources for a modest one is harder to justify.
.[/i]
Repeat clients gain more experience over time and mulitple commissions, but they can never be the architect. They can guide the architect with their wishes and get better at communicating the picture they have in mind. However, I agree with Alden that clients with good taste are every often the ones who collaborate with the architect to produce a true bespoke design that suits his needs and reflects his values; i.e.: success! The same could be said in bespeaking a suit.
Excellent post.
It is a coincidence that we should be using the custom home building analogy at a moment when I am embarking on a rebuilding project. In Italy we have architects, engineers, general contractors and artisans. After interviewing a few architects, I realised that I didn't require their services because I know exactly what I want. They are there to offer advice that I don't require. What I do require is an engineer who has the technical expertise to draw the plans up to do what it is I want done. Then I need the GC to supervise the work of the artisans.
If you drill down to the cutter/tailor level, I would say the cutter is the engineer. He is the guy with the technical knowledge to put our wishes down on paper. Some men are fortunate to have the services of one gifted man who can measure, cut and sew. So the point of drilling down to the cutter/tailor level is not applicable. It still occurs in Italy, but less so in SR, that one man accomplishes each of these tasks. I have no idea how it works in Japan.
Cheers
It is a coincidence that we should be using the custom home building analogy at a moment when I am embarking on a rebuilding project. In Italy we have architects, engineers, general contractors and artisans. After interviewing a few architects, I realised that I didn't require their services because I know exactly what I want. They are there to offer advice that I don't require. What I do require is an engineer who has the technical expertise to draw the plans up to do what it is I want done. Then I need the GC to supervise the work of the artisans.
If you drill down to the cutter/tailor level, I would say the cutter is the engineer. He is the guy with the technical knowledge to put our wishes down on paper. Some men are fortunate to have the services of one gifted man who can measure, cut and sew. So the point of drilling down to the cutter/tailor level is not applicable. It still occurs in Italy, but less so in SR, that one man accomplishes each of these tasks. I have no idea how it works in Japan.
Cheers
What a brilliant and insightful thread!
I do very much agree with alden's analogy of the client/bespeaker potentially being the equivalent of the architect in a building project. However,this is only ever the case when the client has a thorough understanding of the art and science of tailoring in addition to being possessed of a highly developed sense of style , proportion and elegance. Such a client will have definitive views on all aspects of the commission , from the choice of cloth to the hand selection of the horn buttons and shade of twist. As alden opined, this breed of client are extremely rare and most tailors are grateful for this fact!
The client so possessed , passion coursing through his veins, instructs the cutter who then interprets the structural data and strikes the pattern. Pattern drafting is largely geometry and utilises a sytem based on scale and empirical knowledge. This process is not disimilar to that of a draftsman.
Once cut , the garment - jacket,waistcoat or trouser - are put into work and taken to either a first or more advanced stage of fitting. This stage is the construction phase and therefor analogous to the role of individual craftsmen/tradesmen in the building industry.
The role of the architect /client is also crucial at the fitting stage. As we know ,the opportunity to rectify drafting flaws and improve a poorly cut garment presents itself at the fitting. A discerning and knowledgeable architect/client must assert his view and direct the cutter/project manager to address structural or design issues with authority.
I agree with alden that the percentage of bespoke clients who understand the nuances of balance , proportion , drape and construction together with an astute sense of grace and style are indeed a very small number.
The role of individuals such as alden in the bespoke world is to educate , encourage and propose to fledgling bespokeofiles. We are priveledged to have access to such a source of refined knowledge. These exemplars of elan are our consultant architects!
We thank you and salute you ! You know who you are.......
bluscuro
I do very much agree with alden's analogy of the client/bespeaker potentially being the equivalent of the architect in a building project. However,this is only ever the case when the client has a thorough understanding of the art and science of tailoring in addition to being possessed of a highly developed sense of style , proportion and elegance. Such a client will have definitive views on all aspects of the commission , from the choice of cloth to the hand selection of the horn buttons and shade of twist. As alden opined, this breed of client are extremely rare and most tailors are grateful for this fact!
The client so possessed , passion coursing through his veins, instructs the cutter who then interprets the structural data and strikes the pattern. Pattern drafting is largely geometry and utilises a sytem based on scale and empirical knowledge. This process is not disimilar to that of a draftsman.
Once cut , the garment - jacket,waistcoat or trouser - are put into work and taken to either a first or more advanced stage of fitting. This stage is the construction phase and therefor analogous to the role of individual craftsmen/tradesmen in the building industry.
The role of the architect /client is also crucial at the fitting stage. As we know ,the opportunity to rectify drafting flaws and improve a poorly cut garment presents itself at the fitting. A discerning and knowledgeable architect/client must assert his view and direct the cutter/project manager to address structural or design issues with authority.
I agree with alden that the percentage of bespoke clients who understand the nuances of balance , proportion , drape and construction together with an astute sense of grace and style are indeed a very small number.
The role of individuals such as alden in the bespoke world is to educate , encourage and propose to fledgling bespokeofiles. We are priveledged to have access to such a source of refined knowledge. These exemplars of elan are our consultant architects!
We thank you and salute you ! You know who you are.......
bluscuro
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