EG Dover

[Guest]

jcusey's poetic paen to the Dover made me think about this sort of shoe. Regarding comparable shoes:

1) Which is the comparable CJ model, and is it available to Handgrade standards?

2) What do you think of the Vass Norweger on the P2 last, perhaps with an extended welt, a la Weston?

3) Is there any way, anywhere, to get the Weston Chasse at a discount?

[zjpj]

1. The Cornhill. Available from Ben Silver. Doesn't compare, IMO.

[mpolanthan]

1. The Cornhill is made to handgrade standards. However, it is no longer part of the current retail offering by C&J and no longer features in their retail catalogue. Special orders are accomodated for retailers like Ben Silver that request this model. I concur with zjpj that the Cornhill is not upto Dover standards. You may be interested to know that John Lobb has a a models identical to the Dover called the Chambord.

2. By extended welt, I'm guessing you mean the reverse or goyser welting? If so, I'm partial to the Norweger with the split-toe on the Budapest last. This is personal preference more than anything, and I also believe the P2 Norwegers look better without a split-toe.

[bengal-stripe]

Is there any way, anywhere, to get the Weston Chasse at a discount?

I was told by Weston’s London manager, that the “Chasse” is only made to order. They take your measurements and make the shoe entirely by hand (on the most appropriate stock last), especially for you. There might even be a fitting half-way (but then, it’s possible I confuse that with something else).

The chances are pretty slim, that a pair from some recently deceased gentleman in just the right size turns up on eBay.

Rolf

[Guest]

Bengal Stripe, suggesting I might knock off an old man for his Chasse shoes is really unfair.

Does anyone know anyone who owns a pair who is not healthy however, perhaps ready for hospice?

[Guest]

What sayeth the Lounge about the corresponding Alden model, perhaps the modernized version offered by Alden-of-Carmel?

[TVD]

No matter how good a RTW shoe is, with a single exception I have never seen a pair that would come even near the handstitched, bevelled sole quality of a good bespoke bootmaker. I consider even the JL Paris Jermyn IIs I bought as an economical compromise committed in postprandial stupor. It is like people collecting art according to the artists name alone: you will have a tan brogue, or black monk, but will it be beautiful?

Decide whom you want to use as your bootmakers, and follow through as if it were matrimony: get it right, and you will be happy ever after; flit and sip, and you will be ruined by alimony payments and divorce settlements, your dotage wrecked by loneliness. Also, having chosen, do not doubt all the time: which wife would be happy for her beauty and intelligence to be evaluated against every alternative that crosses your path.

I gather that Philadelphia has no bespoke bootmakers of note, so you must settle on whom in Europe you want, travel there and get the last right. Once a couple of pairs fit, future orders can surely be placed by phone. You have a good eye for detail, give it the benefit of the doubt and go for the best. It will be cheaper in the end. And training one's patience in the mean time is good character building stuff.

[Guest]

With the price of EG bespoke in the thousands, and RTW fitting me so well, I find unlikely that I will ever spring for it. And well-known brands like Vass and Weston are not even available bespoke. Plus, as much as some of these brands appeal to me (like the reliable Edward Green or the eccentric Vass), I find hard to believe that I would be happy wearing only one brand of shoe. For this sort of shoe (the "chasse"), I have to choose between the Dover and the Chasse. The Dover is a no-brainer: email to EG and I will have it in a few days and I will be very comfortable in it. I have done this twice and though EG prices are high, they are absolutely reliable. The shoes I have from them are my most treasured. The Weston Chasse would require a special trip to NYC to be fitted, and then I have to deal with the staff at Weston, and over the phone I have to say I find them....distasteful.

[jcusey]

What sayeth the Lounge about the corresponding Alden model, perhaps the modernized version offered by Alden-of-Carmel?

Alden's model is a demi-chasse, not a chasse, and the method and appearance of the stitching on the vamp and the toe is very different from either the Dover or the Weston Hunt shoe. The Alden-style demi-chasse is made by a number of other firms as well (eg, Albaladejo and Gravati). It's a good shoe, and I own a pair in Color 8 shell cordovan; but it's not a replacement for the Dover or the Hunt.

[TVD]

Never say never. Once you had a pair of proper bespoke shoes, you cannot go back. At least you will not be able to consider yourself well dressed. The difference I find is even greater than between bespoke and RTW clothes: there you can at least get comparable workmanship from say Attolini or Cheshire; in shoes the finest handmade quality is only available bespoke. The leather is finer, acquires and keeps a shine more easily, they are lighter, the bevelled sole makes your foot look more elegant, they last longer, THEY FIT.

Well, poverty is an excuse, economy is not. Try it out once, before you spend a fortune on RTW you will not want to wear again once you had bespoke. So better now than regrets in ten years time.

Re the Chasse, I understand it is their piece de resistance, what Weston bases its reputation on. A good excuse to go to Paris anyway. Also, the staff in the new Weston shop behind the Burlington Arcade are extremely helpful and friendly, in the event you are passing through London.

[Guest]

Remember, my RTW shoes fit. Chalk it up to poverty of SPIRIT then!

[Guest]

jcusey, what makes a shoe a "demi-chasse?" The lack of a triple sole?

[jcusey]

jcusey, what makes a shoe a "demi-chasse?" The lack of a triple sole?

Here's a chasse (this one is the JL Paris Chambord model -- the pictures were cribbed from user mpolanthan's excellent assemblage):



Notice how the quarters and the area beneath the apron on the vamp are one piece of leather.

Here's a demi-chasse:



Notice how the quarters and the area beneath the apron are two different pieces of leather.

[jcusey]

No matter how good a RTW shoe is, with a single exception I have never seen a pair that would come even near the handstitched, bevelled sole quality of a good bespoke bootmaker. I consider even the JL Paris Jermyn IIs I bought as an economical compromise committed in postprandial stupor. It is like people collecting art according to the artists name alone: you will have a tan brogue, or black monk, but will it be beautiful?

There are many reasons why going the all-bespoke route for shoes may not make sense for certain people. First, of course, is the cost. The best English firms will charge you at least £1300 for basic calfskin shoes with trees, and prices can go much higher. Paris makers are even higher. It's possible to do much better in Italy, but since Italian makers don't travel like the English makers do, the true cost of ownership for an American would be significantly higher than just the amount of money that goes to the artisan. There are a number of Central Eastern European firms with much lower prices, but they excel at shoes with an entirely different aesthetic from English bespoke shoes. In general, the difference in price between first-class bespoke shoes and first-class RTW shoes is much greater than the difference in price between first-class bespoke tailored goods or shirts and their RTW competitors. The comment about Central and Eastern European makers brings us to the second reason: different makers do better with different styles of shoes. If you want a pair of Norvogese or Bentivegna shoes, you would not go to Tony Gaziano. If you want a proper pair of Budapesters, you wouldn't go to Sig. Bestetti. And if you want outrageously antiqued and amazingly sleek three-eyelet wholecuts, you would have very few options other than Berluti. The point is that those who have eclectic tastes in shoes and will only wear bespoke will have to develop relationships with many different artisans in many different countries, and each relationship will take time and experimentation to reach an optimal level. Thirdly, it is natural that a shoe enthusiast will want to experiment with different leathers and different designs. Part and parcel with experimentation is failure. Is it better to fail with a special order of relatively inexpensive RTW shoes or with a pair of very expensive (and very time-consuming) bespoke shoes? Finally, there are some things that RTW firms simply do better than bespoke firms. There aren't many, but there are some. For example, the handstitching on the vamp of the EG Dover is the finest in the world. I haven't yet seen a bespoke shoe with handstitching of similar quality, and when I do, it's virtually certain that it will be from Edward Green.

[Guest]

I am afraid you will start charging me, but what is there to say about the Weston Demi-Chasse model? Now that I understand the difference, I actually find the demi-chasse configuration slightly more appealing. i know Weston also makes the sole a double-sole. I do not know if they reduce the extended welt. I know it is available RTW at a fraction of the price of the Chasse model.