Astaire's Ties

[Robert Watkins]

Gentlemen:

I watched The Barkleys of Broadway this past weekend for the first time in many years, and was struck by the ties Mr Astaire was wearing in two scenes. Both ties were quite short, ending a good three inches above the top of his pants; and, both were knotted so that the narrow end of the tie was two or three inches longer than the broad end. In one scene, he promptly donned a double breasted jacket so only the upper part of the tie was showing. However, in the other scene, he wore an unbuttoned sports coat, leaving the tie totally visible (while riding on a train, getting off at the station, and then walking down a country lane). Any comments as to whether this was standard at the time, or just another element of Mr. Astaire's personal style?

Robert

[Mark Seitelman]

I would say that a good amount of this is Astaire's personal style although Gary Cooper wore a very short neck tie in "The Fountainhead."

[Incroyable]

Short fat ties were rather modish in the '30s up until the '40s it seems.

[TVD]

Please remember that most suits were three piece, and trousers were cut with a high rise. As a consequence ties had to be shorter in order to avoid pocking out underneath the waistcoat at the bottom.

[Robert Watkins]

What I was most struck by was not the overall length of the ties, but that they were knotted so the wide front belly was distinctly shorter than the narrow one in back. Today, most of us would regard that as an absolute faux pas!

Robert!

[manicturncoat]

It is a style that was popularized in Italy by Gianni Agnelli who used to wear his ties with the narrow longer. Actually, I don't know how popular it really became but in Italy if GA set a precedent it at least was no longer considered faux-pas.

[exigent]

What I was most struck by was not the overall length of the ties, but that they were knotted so the wide front belly was distinctly shorter than the narrow one in back. Today, most of us would regard that as an absolute faux pas!

Robert!

I have been away for some time: this topic seems like a worthy return to for'm (yarf). There are a number of persons highly respected for their sartorial taste, who wear neckties that are idiotically long; in some cases, literally performing the unique function of sweeping the front of their trousers in a shocking manner. I follow a hard rule that punishes anyone who wears a necktie that falls below the waistband; long ties drag one down, while shorter lengths give a sense of well ordered proportion. Ultra-short ties seldom look right, but shorter ties almost always help a fellow to maintain a kind of tasteful insouciance, as does the occasional narrow end sticking out below the wider front.

[Mark Seitelman]

I concur with Exigent's observations.

It seems that most ties are too long. My guess is that in order to accomodate the "one size fits all" mentality, the tie industry seems to make a tie that is a little too long for the average person.

I have found that Brooks Bros. ties are a good length for me.

[TVD]

Well, I am glad that I am not the same size as the fast food bloated masses. It is bad enough that people ruin their health (and the healtcare system) through sheer gluttony (if they ate at least well, but alas it is dreadfull gunk they stuff down their throat), but the sartorial consequences are tragic (or hilarious, depending on your personal ethics).

We are talking about a society here that requires the manufacturers of medical equipment to increase dimensions and sturdyness to accomodate the flood like influx of patients weighing 150kg and more. Have you ever seen an operating table struggling to contain this sort of live weight? Or an obese patient stuck in an MRI scanner. Great fun. Even chairs in doctors' waiting rooms struggle to cope, viz the recent example of a female patient, who on being called stood up, only to realise her chair had risen with her, the armrests wedging in her bottom.

Obviously the supersized roll of fat surrounding the neck of such proud specimens has to be accomodated, and all that impressive gut down to the over-stretched waistband must be covered by far too short a tie, too.

I have done no empirical research, but I think there is a correlation between unhealthy lifestyle, unpleasant body shape and the propensity to wear shapeless untailored rags. A recent researcher did make a curious observation, though: On being asked which adjective best decribed their physique, the obviously obese invariably thought they were "strong".

[Mulberrywood]

It seems that most ties are too long. My guess is that in order to accomodate the "one size fits all" mentality, the tie industry seems to make a tie that is a little too long for the average person.

Mark,

You make a good point, may I add that many ties are way too short? Sometimes we gain weight and that makes a tie too short, and other times a tie that is perfect for a 4-in hand can be short for a Windsor.

[Mark Seitelman]

A clarification:

I found that many stores carry one size in necktie and that the size tends to be long. Very few stores carry extra-long ties, hence many shops carry a tie which tends to be too long so that "one size can fit all."

I used to buy ties from Alan Flusser, and they were very long. He recommended that the end be stuck in the trouser waist band "a la Astaire."

Cheers.

[JLibourel]

Mark's observations about most ties being "too long" strikes a responsive cord. I seem to do just fine with "standard"-length ties. However, I am 6'3" and extremely long-bodied. (My trouser inseam is only 32".) I have been somewhat puzzled that most ordinarily ties work fine for me, as logic should dictate that they would be too short if appropriate for the average man. Probably they do make them too long for the average man. Of course, this trend could also be abetted by the tendency of many younger fellows to wear even their dress trousers on their hips instead of their waist, just like their jeans.

[TVD]

Actuall, they probably make them just fine for the AVERAGE man: consider that with a slim build an inch of additional body height will translate 1:1 into tie length required. Once the measuring is no longer straight down vertically, but a curve forward and down, the additional tie length needed will be far more.

Secondly, the bulging neck of the average man will take up lots of the tie. The problem is that none of the artisans present are exposed to the AVERAGE man, but I would guess that neck sizes over the last 100 years have increased substantially, and it is not muscle acquired in the gym! Any expert views would be most welcome. Mr Kabbaz?

On the other hand, the average bespoke neck size may have decreased (but this is no more than an idea, no scientific support whatsoever): Before the second world war the bourgeois classes signalled with body mass that they could afford to eat. It was the rakish aristocrat who could get away with being stick thin, but a man of SUBSTANCE looked exactly that. After all, the watch chain and fob needed a canvas!

Anyway, if I tie a half-windsor knot so that the narrow end is only 1cm shorter than the wide front part, I get away with a tie where only the triangle overlaps the waistband. I am exactly 6 foot. It would follow that whereas I am probably of average height, the majority of people have a slower metabolism (or suffer from gluttony).

[Mulberrywood]

TVD,

You express very clearly what I was thinking in my post. I have made ties for clients that required an additional 6 plus inches to allow for the average American diet & lifestyle....

With that said I am off to the gym.