Overcoat Project

[YoungLawyer]

Yet another interesting variation (originally posted by Sator elsewhere):
http://uk.pinterest.com/pin/419749627744411512/
This is a superb coat in many ways, but the pattern isn't as satisfactory, as there is an additional seam on each side down the skirt - I don't think the skirt is improved for having this extra panel. On other patterns, there appears to only be a small dart there where needed over the hip, which doesn't go a significant distance down towards the hem.

[YoungLawyer]

Looking at the patterns in more detail, there appear to be two important versions of the back vent, as detailed on this thread, and elsewhere (http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/in ... wtopic=215).

The first version has one pleat, about 6" wide, attached to the right-hand side of the back skirt/ (or if made as one piece, the centre back panel).
the second version has two pleats, about 2", each side of the back skirt.

On the whole, the version with a single-piece back panel (i.e. no seam down the centre of the back), and just one deep pleat on one side of the back skirt, seems the simplest, and therefore the best. However, I'd like to hear anyone's practical experience of having a coat made up in this sort of style, in any of the variations. I don't know if Sator ever had one made? I note his (or your!) enthusiasm on the cutter and tailor forum for this style as opposed to the chesterfield.

I've been looking at more cloth, and have narrowed my decision down to a choice of two. First, is the 22oz herringbone I'd seen before, and the second is a slightly heavier 24oz plain blue. I think given that I'm going to chose a more complicated cut, I'd prefer the one that errs towards simplicity, but can't decide whether that is the plain cloth, or whether the herringbone would make the extra seams less obvious. I'd like the focus to be the fit, rather than the difference in cut, which is why I think the extra buttons might be too much.

So in terms of style, I'm going to ask for that in the double-breasted JP Thornton pattern at "p.7" on the thread above, but with a buttoning point lowered to the second button, and the top buttons omitted. Also, I believe that pattern shows a split back panel, and I'm going to ask, as in the top illustration, for this to be one piece.

[Dr T]

Please share with us a photo of the finished creation - it sound great.

[YoungLawyer]

I shall. I have ordered this earlier this afternoon - in 22oz Harrisons dark blue subtle herringbone - and look forward to the first fitting. Because it is a little unusual, I've left a few details to be confirmed at this first fitting. In particular, I haven't decided on the outside chest pocket, nor on whether the sleeves should be cuffed. The Thornton pattern had 4 pairs of buttons. I've asked for the top three to be indicated, with a roll to the middle button, and I'll decide on the 4th pair at a later stage. The length is currently mid-calf, but this might be slightly too long, and I might shorten it to somewhere between the calf and bottom of the knee.
For the first fitting, it's going to be made up with one single, larger box-pleat on the right-hand side. The tailor suggested that it might work better with two smaller box-pleats, but that is going to be assessed at the first fitting. He agreed the single-piece back.

I like the idea of turnback cuffed sleeves, but this might be a little bulky. What variations for cutting these cuffs are there? Has anyone any examples to post?

[hectorm]

I like the idea of turnback cuffed sleeves, but this might be a little bulky.

Dear YL,
during the years I have had a few OCs with double cuffed sleeves. IMO, they worked well for the polos and not so well for slimmer coats. A question of balance I suppose, more than of formality or style. If you don't want the bulk, you can always have a "faux" double cuff with stitches but without the two layers of thick cloth plus lining.

[hectorm]

I like the idea of turnback cuffed sleeves, but this might be a little bulky.

Dear YL,
during the years I have had a few OCs with double cuffed sleeves. IMO, they worked well for the polos and not so well for slimmer coats. A question of balance I suppose, more than of formality or style. If you don't want the bulk, you can always have a "faux" double cuff skillfully made with just rows of stitches but without the two layers of thick cloth plus lining.

[YoungLawyer]

Thank you Hectorm - I had guessed that this was possible, although I'd appreciate a picture/ a pointer towards how this is done. I think cuffs work well with the overall balance, but slimmer cuffs would be better, as you suggest.

I find that placing an order concentrates the mind very effectively. I confess that I'm slightly anxious as to how box pleats will work in reality, having seen a few examples on different fora illustrating unsuccessful attempts. In particular, I've seen a couple that didn't sit "closed", and where the pleats billowed inside out.

In fact, on reflection, if the back panel isn't too wide (like [ http://www.pinterest.com/pin/419749627744375731/ ] or [ http://www.pinterest.com/pin/419749627743364268/ ]) rather than ( http://www.pinterest.com/pin/419749627744137264/ ) , it's probably sensible just to have an 'inside panel/skirt' rather than a box-pleat. I think this is what was suggested by the first illustration in this thread ( http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/in ... wtopic=215 ) in any case, but the language isn't entirely clear to a non-tailor. There is an illustration of a frock overcoat (http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/in ... owtopic=47) on this thread with a simple inside panel at the back.

The only successful examples of coats with box-pleats I've seen in photographs were those where the box-pleats were spaced relatively far apart, further than the narrowest panels between the side bodies.

[YoungLawyer]

There is quite some variety in the way the backs of these coats are treated. I've attempted a sketch of the main variations:
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/419749627744495249/

(1) has the curved seams continue from the back of the armpit to the base of the skirts, and a vent in the one-piece back panel. (4) shows a similar idea but with a the back panel cut in two pieces.

(2) is cut like a conventional body-coat back. where the skirts are folded back and sewn down on either side of the vent.

(5) has two box-pleats but not in line with the curved seams of the back-panel, but rather displaced to the side. There is a good picture of this style as a "paddock coat" elsewhere on this forum.

(6) has two box-pleats on each side of the back panel. I've seen a pattern for this, but I have not been able to find any picture of a real coat made up in this pattern, and I don't know how the two box-pleats would work in practice.

(3) has a one-piece back, and a simple broad underskirt. There is no box-pleat, just a simple overlap of cloth. I think this looks the most elegant. Is there any reason why this way of cutting the back should not work? I think the underskirt is the whole width of the outside back panel, but only fixed at the top. This should provide enough movement, shouldn't it?

[Dr T]

Any ideas where I can buy this coat - or was it a one off? https://www.pinterest.com/pin/419749627743364260/

[C.Lee]

Dr T, that coat was cut by Karl Matthews, and discussed previously.


Regards.

[Dr T]

Many thanks - It looks superb.

[YoungLawyer]

I had a muslin fitting today, and hopefully will have a first fitting in a week or so, from which there may be pictures.

[YoungLawyer]

I have collected this, and worn it in the wild - there are a number of issues that presented themselves only outside, to be sorted out after a few more outings.

First of all, 3 pictures:
http://uk.pinterest.com/pin/419749627745367925/
http://uk.pinterest.com/pin/419749627745367921/
http://uk.pinterest.com/pin/419749627745367918/

On the cloth - 22oz is, when compared to my other coat, a 1950s Mans Shop at Harrods survival, rather on the thin side. If I were doing this again, I'd look for a cloth in the 28/30oz range if such cloth exists. I hadn't appreciated from looking at the samples, and feeling the cloth, how light 22oz is. I'm very happy with the colour and the texture, albeit that I do consider this a little thin.

On the fit, from the top, the collar slips a little at the back, perhaps 3/4", and this needs to be addressed.

I can't explain why there is so much pulling around the 2nd button (the top button that fastens) - the coat is, despite appearances, not tight at all. There is over 2" room here, over a fairly thick tweed jacket. If the cloth is held so that the top non-functioning button is in line with the rest, and the coat held as if it fastens, then this is much cleaner.

The fit on the back is a little puzzling. The fit on the waist is fairly clean, but clearly not over the shoulders. The armholes have been made slightly too deep, but that is something that can't be changed.

I'd have dropped the waist/side panel seams by a further inch, looking at the pictures. I'd have lowered the pockets by about the same amount. Again, hindsight is very useful!

The way the pleats hang open is, again, a little puzzling. There is plenty of room in the cloth here. I suspect it is to do with the height - and lowering the waist/side panel seams, would have lowered the height the pleats hang. The pleats are much better behaved inside the tailor's cutting room. I do not know how to improve this. Perhaps sewing the pleats closed for an inch at the very top would rectify this a little. Edit - on reviewing this more closely - it may be that the 'pleat' part has been made with cloth from the side/front panel, which should have gone into the fullness of the skirts. So if these are remade with an extra few inches of material, the pleats should hang closed. The skirts would, then, be very full.

Altogether, this is an interesting experiment so far in what was probably a difficult style, but this needs some significant tidying up. If anyone is tempted to follow this up, I'd suggest lowering the waist seams as much as possible. I think this closer style calls for more cloth on the under-arms that I have here. I may have the top non-functioning buttons removed and a breast pocket added (see http://uk.pinterest.com/pin/419749627743311983/ for a further comparison).

[hectorm]

If the cloth is held so that the top non-functioning button is in line with the rest, and the coat held as if it fastens, then this is much cleaner.

Déjà vu.
Some time ago and after many years of being somewhat bothered by the light pulling of the first functioning button of my -otherwise very stylish- bespoke 6x2 Polo coat, an alteration tailor converted into a 6x3. Small tweaks had not worked, so he finally brought in the top buttons on vertical line with the rest and opened a new buttonhole in the lapel roll (which now is considerably shorter). A risky change but the results were spectacular. No more pulling and the Polo is now more versatile (I can still opt for buttoning only the second button and having the longer roll) and with a better closure of the lapel when I lift the collar on chilly days.
Note: this Polo has peaked lapels and not a combination (Ulster) collar.

[Frederic Leighton]

Dear YoungLawyer,

Thank you for sharing your impressions after the first few wearings. I really enjoyed following this project! I thought of it when this report was published (another useful reading for anyone interested in a formal coat of unusual cut).

For some reason, I don't have access to the images in your last post; any chance you can help with this? Thank you!