Patch pockets

[Scot]

Looking through photographs of Windsor, and other British gents of the same vintage, I could find no examples of patch pockets on tweed (doubtless someone will turn something up to prove me wrong). Patch pockets seemed to be confined to summer weight garments, which, for me, is how it should be.

I have hundreds of photos of patch pockets on tweed from the first half of the 20th century.

I thought you might. It would certainly be good to see some representative examples.

[hectorm]

Looking through photographs of Windsor, and other British gents of the same vintage, I could find no examples of patch pockets on tweed (doubtless someone will turn something up to prove me wrong). Patch pockets seemed to be confined to summer weight garments.

Dear Scot,
patch pockets and tweed have a long and fruitful tradition of working together.
Patch pockets on tweed jackets (particularly bellow patch pockets) is a very common way of carrying your shells and other stuff.

[Frederic Leighton]

[...] It would certainly be good to see some representative examples.

Dear Scot,

Here the first ones coming to my mind - E. Carpenter, C. Veidt (I really like this one! here it is again), this is also quite nice... oh sorry, I meant this (H. Hawks), R. Valentino (don't like this one) and again Valentino.

I'm not trying to change your mind; I'm glad different people have different opinion and taste.

Re tweed and the distinction Summer/Winter wardrobe, I think this can also be a bit misleading. Tweed traditionally comes from regions that have very little Summer and where this cloth is worn (and/or was worn) all year round. In less 'archeological times', I think the Victorian period with its precise code of different wardrobe for different activities is when tweed found a more limited and specific destination of use (country and sport wear). I believe the idea of tweed as Summer cloth is fairly recent (last 30-40 years?). In one of the photos above, you see Valentino wearing a summer outfit consisting of spectator shoes, cream flannel trousers and donegal tweed jacket with patch pockets and flaps. Actually flannel also followed a similar destiny - nowadays its name evokes the coldest months of the years, but during the decades we take our inspiration from, flannel probably was synonym of summer and casual attire.

Kind regards,
f

[Scot]

Looking through photographs of Windsor, and other British gents of the same vintage, I could find no examples of patch pockets on tweed

So, I was looking back to British/English style from about the 1940s onwards.

Here the first ones coming to my mind - E. Carpenter, C. Veidt (I really like this one! here it is again), this is also quite nice... oh sorry, I meant this (H. Hawks), R. Valentino (don't like this one) and again Valentino.

These seem to me to be either rather more historic examples, or of American and Continental gents, or a combination of both. Interseting in their way but do they contradict my theory, which is that patch pockets on tweed is a distinctly minority style in English tailoring in the last 70 years? I admit it's a rather sterile argument and one should just comission what one fancies.

[Frederic Leighton]

Scot, you want me to do your homework!

In this illustration from Henry Poole's archive and also here:



EDIT: if you have "Menswear. Vintage people on photo postcards" (by Tom Phillips, Oxford 2012), check photos 65, 66, 110, 114, 117, 118, 123, 179 and 197 for tweed jackets that are not Norfork jackets but have patch pockets, all from England 1920's-1940's.

[hectorm]

...my theory, which is that patch pockets on tweed is a distinctly minority style in English tailoring in the last 70 years?

Patch pockets on tweed is as much a minority style in English tailoring as patch pockets on any other cloth.

[Scot]

...my theory, which is that patch pockets on tweed is a distinctly minority style in English tailoring in the last 70 years?

Patch pockets on tweed is as much a minority style in English tailoring as patch pockets on any other cloth.

I'm not sure I fully agree. Yes, in general welt pockets will be far more common than patch. But, going back to my parameters, from the 1940s onwards, I suspect it is possible to find many more examples of patch pockets on Linen, say, than it is on tweed. Wheeling out examples of bellows pockets on shooting garb does not convince me that this is something I want to adopt on my tweed coats.

[hectorm]

I believe the idea of tweed as Summer cloth is fairly recent (last 30-40 years?).

Did you mean winter, Federico?
Your own examples show men wearing tweed in summer outfits much before.

[Frederic Leighton]

[...]But, going back to my parameters, from the 1940s onwards, I suspect it is possible to find many more examples of patch pockets on Linen, say, than it is on tweed. Wheeling out examples of bellows pockets on shooting garb does not convince me that this is something I want to adopt on my tweed coats.

On the above mentioned book you will find examples of patch pockets that are not bellows pockets. On the other hand, you would definitely struggle to find linen jackets altogether in the period ("Windsor, and other British gents of the same vintage", which translates into 1920's/30's-1960's) and geographic area in consideration here. Linen is the minority and exception.

If you are looking for inspiration, why geographical and chronological limitations anyway? Here the photo of Gable Will posted today.

I believe the idea of tweed as Summer cloth is fairly recent (last 30-40 years?).

Did you mean winter, Federico? Your own examples show men wearing tweed in summer outfits much before.

Thank you, Hectorm; yes, that's what I meant. Apologies for the mistake. In other words, around the turn of the century and probably until around WWII and slightly after, the choice of what to wear woudn't be based on the season/temperature, but on the occasion (= the activity involved). If you had to play golf in july, tweed would be the standard choice. August on the beach? flannel trousers and tweed jacket with patch pocket and flaps. Evening at the opera in Summer? Tails (in the Victorian era, DJ in the Edwardian era and later) AND overcoat. You would be allowed to carry the overcoat on your arm, though Not my theory; that's what you see on postcards and read in etiquette manuals.

[Scot]

If you are looking for inspiration, why geographical and chronological limitations anyway? Here the photo of Gable Will posted today.

I'm not looking for inspiration at all. Melcombe decided against patch pockets and in favour of slanted flapped pockets. In view of the fabric and pattern he chose I was merely offering the view that his decision was probably the conventional one.

I suppose if inspiration is what you're after then you would do well to cast your net widely. But could it be that too many people waste their time trying to look like someone else? It would take more than clothes to make me look like a Gable, even if I wanted to.

[hectorm]

.. around the turn of the century and probably until around WWII and slightly after, the choice of what to wear wouldn’t be based on the season/temperature, but on the occasion (= the activity involved).

Related to these strict choices: I had my first really "serious" encounter with tweed during the early 90s in SR´s tailor shops. After showing my interest in a tweed suit for my forays outside London, the front man at Huntsman proceeded to educate me regarding lounge (indoor) tweeds, hiking tweeds (bit heavier and thornproof), walking tweeds (heavier), shooting tweeds (heavier still) and even deer stalking (heaviest and camouflaged). A little overwhelming, but no mention of season of the year at all, only different levels of activities.

[couch]

. . . although it might be observed that shooting and deer stalking (as opposed to poaching) occur in strictly regulated seasons for gentlemen, and have since the days of the Angevins (in Britain), for the better management of game stocks. Hiking and walking are more ad libitum, but presumably the weather and terrain that beckon one to trek are more likely to be cool and elevated than blazing and flat.

On the other hand, there are all those explorers and mad dogs . . . .

[hectorm]

. . . although it might be observed that shooting and deer stalking (as opposed to poaching) occur in strictly regulated seasons for gentlemen

Shooting seasons in England, Wales and Scotland (birds, ground game and deer) are indeed strictly regulated, but they do not coincide with any specific season of the year that might give you a clue regarding the temperature or weight of the tweed. They are spread during summer, fall, and winter, with spring (with a few exceptions) being the close season.
Taking all that into consideration, we might get to the point of the ultra-specific activity related cloth. Not only general shooting tweed, but red deer hind stalking may require a heavy tweed since it involves lots of being still mostly in the winter time open season, while a sika stag -that can be hunted in summer- may require a lighter cloth.
And talking about patch pockets.......

[couch]

Not only general shooting tweed, but red deer hind stalking may require a heavy tweed since it involves lots of being still mostly in the winter time open season, while a sika stag -that can be hunted in summer- may require a lighter cloth.
And talking about patch pockets.......

This, hectorm, was indeed what I had in mind, prompted by the distinction you drew yourself, in writing about your tailor's tutelage, between shooting and deerstalking tweeds. I tend to think of birds and ground game as "shooting" quarry, and of course their seasons are all autumn and winter with the grouse, ptarmigan, and snipe somewhat anticipating the rest. But your point is well taken; the Glorious Twelfth, especially given unpredictable climate-change effects, is gilet-and-shirtsleeves weather in some years and places. And the roebuck is fair game in summer.

The main point is, as you say, that the recommended tweed is meant to suit the typical conditions of the particular field sport to be undertaken, and a good English tailor is prepared to make quite specific recommendations as to proper kit. In addition to likely terrain to be encountered and physical activity required, those conditions would reflect the usual odds for temperature and precipitation--with, to your point, the understanding that usual and inevitable are not the same thing.

And you're right--what's a shooting coat without patch pockets for shells?

As an aside, the link between tailoring and field sports apparently (at least in some cases) extends to participation. I know Leonard Logsdail remains a keen shot and I once overheard a conversation between a senior staff member at the Piccadilly Arcade branch of New and Lingwood and a well-heeled customer about an upcoming shooting party they were both planning to attend.

I should say candidly that I don't myself engage in field sports; your post prompted me to join the thread due to the coincidental fact that I'm reading a recent book of literary scholarship by Catherine Bates called Masculinity and the Hunt, which traces in minute detail the social, legal, and technical history of field sports (including also coursing stags, driving hinds into nets, boar hunting, hawking, and falconry) from the 15th-century The Master of Game by Edward III's grandson, the second Duke of York, through the 17th century. The book's main purpose is to reveal the subtleties and implications for power and prestige in the various hunting images of such writers as Wyatt, Sidney, Greville, and Spenser, but its history of hunting and shooting (archery) is fascinating.

I do, however, find my shooting coats--with patch pockets--to be indispensable garments whether pursuing groceries or game.

My tweed jackets, I fear, all have flap pockets.

Cheers,
couch

[hectorm]

It's extremely enjoyable, Couch, to read posts like yours.
Thank you