Rubber Sole Recommendations

[Kayak81]

I'm having a pair of ankle boots made for walking in wet and slippery conditions, and was wondering if any LL members had recommendations for the type of sole I should use. The boots will be worn mostly with smart casual attire, but I'll occasionally need to wear them with a suit as well. Leather soles would absorb too much water and don't provide much traction. I'm also not really crazy about Dainite. To me, Dainite doesn't have much more traction than leather, and is also stiffer and less comfortable to walk in. The best thing I can say about Dainite, is that it doesn't absorb water.

My shoemaker has recommended Commando soles, but I'm afraid that this might be a bit of overkill, particularly in the Spring, Summer & Autumn. Vibram seems to have a number of soles that would offer more grip and cushioning than Dainite and with a less aggressive tread pattern than the Commando, but London shoemakers don't seem to offer them. Does anyone know why? I'd appreciate hearing any recommendations that members might have.

[Concordia]

Edward Green sells a thin, smooth, black rubber sole that can work quite well in dress environments. Obviously, there is a trade-off between indoor suavity and usefulness outdoors.

[hectorm]

If more traction for dress ankle boots that are going to be worn with a suit is your main concern, you don´t want or need Dianite or Vibram soles (and least of all Commando soles, please). A shaped piece or a few strips of thin rubber glued to the sole would do the trick without altering the profile of the shoe or its balance. Your shoemaker should know about this.
Regarding water absorption through the soles, it´s my experience that it could be a problem just the first few times you wear new leather shoes. Then the soles are sealed (the shoe breathes mainly through its uppers). Also ankle boots with welted construction will help to take care of the problem by keeping (within reason) the water from above out.

[davidhuh]

Dear Kayak,

my longest lasting pair of shoes is burgundy pair of Church's with a Dainite sole. I'm wearing them since almost 30 years, and they are in very good shape still...

Cheers, David

[Kayak81]

Dear Hectorm, Concordia & David,

Thanks for the advice. The main purpose of these boots would be for outdoor walking, particularly when travelling, and when inclement weather is a strong possibility. They’ll be worn with chinos or corduroys most of the time and only occasionally with a suit. For example, my wife and I normally stop in London on our way back to the U.S. from European vacations, and I often try to squeeze in some business meetings while I’m there. I normally wear chukkas on these trips, as they are weather resistant, have good traction and provide ankle support on uneven pavement and country walks. I obviously can’t wear chukkas with a suit though, and it always seems a waste of precious luggage space to bring dress shoes along for just one or two meetings (not to mention the ridiculously high surcharges on RyanAir if your bag weighs more than 20 kg). Moreover, there have been torrential rains on my last few London trips, so I need to let my shoes dry out for a day or two if they get soaked in a rainstorm. It seems to me that a pair of boots made out of weather-resistant materials might be able to do double duty in these circumstances.

Another example when I might wear these boots with a suit would be attending a conference or seminar in NY when the sidewalks and streets are full of snow and slush. Perhaps I am too fussy, but I’m not going to submit calfskin, leather-soled bespoke shoes to conditions like this, so I end up wearing cheap rubber-soled “dress walkers” instead. So wearing a good pair of bespoke boots with rubber soles would still be preferable to the alternative.

I’ve thought about Wensum soles, but I believe this is just a thin rubber coating over leather soles. I don’t think this would provide the type of traction or protection that I’m looking for. I’ll probably end up choosing Dainite. If you look at a site like Russell Moccasins though, you’ll see any number of soles that wouldn’t look much worse than Dainite, but which would provide better grip and cushioning. I’d like to understand if there’s some technical reason why these soles aren’t used on bespoke boots, or if it’s just not customary for them to be offered.

[Concordia]

How about these? Double leather sole-- you could treat with some kind of wax, keep the edges painted, and use a topy. Cordovan is more weatherproof than calf.

[couch]

I have Perry Ercolino put dress fine line half soles (#368 in the Vibram catalog) on many of my dress shoes when new, with a row of flush-set brass nails around the toe tip. They are a little thicker than a Topy, but not as thick as a double sole, so for many dress shoe styles they are not particularly noticeable unless viewed from the bottom. This model has transverse sipes which offer fairly good traction on wet pavement. With top lifts of some similar synthetic rubber material on the heels, I find these do a good job of minimizing water damage to the soles (a couple of pair have been soaked through in downpours) and it's much easier to replace them when worn than to resole the entire shoe. Of course, your choice of leathers for the uppers, any coatings (sno-seal, etc.) and the type of welting will also affect their weather resistance. Manton once put some effort into commissioning ankle-height dress boots (bal-style cap toes) in cordovan for walking to work in Manhattan in slushy weather.

All that said, there is also something to be said for Dainite, and I have a couple of pair with Dainite soles. Dainite was invented for country walking--to be wet-resistant, durable, with good traction on open ground, and yet to release plugs of mud easily from the round depressed "cleats"--something commando soles are terrible at. So one of my pairs with Dainite are traditional double-soled, storm-welted, tan (now patinated with use) pebble-grained derbies from Crockett and Jones. They have been worn hard for eight years including extensive pavement walking, and have only been resoled once and re-heeled twice. Dainite is distinctly more durable than any Vibram sole, in my experience. It does not offer significant improvement in traction on wet pavement, unlike the Vibram fineline soles, but I don't find it dangerous, and I like its durability. It offers quite good traction in the field.

And I had one pair of shoes made through Paul Stuart's custom program a few years ago (actually crafted by Grenson, I think) that were a dark brown pebble grain calf, burnished on the punched-cap toe to a smoother mocha effect, on a very sleek city last, with a single Dainite sole (just a thin midsole below the welt). This may sound incongruous but I can assure you that these are among the most versatile and handsome shoes I own (among the few that people actually stop me to remark on--even more than my G&Gs). I don't hesitate to wear them with flannels or cavalry twills and tweed odd jackets, or a relatively informal suit at a pinch. A navy or Oxford gray suit might be pushing it, but if you had a similar shoe in smooth black calf you could certainly pull it off.

The fineline Vibram sole is very similar to the Edward Green sole mentioned above, except that the EG sole is stitched through, so if it wears, the whole shoe has to be restitched to resole it. This may not be of concern to you. I'm surprised that your London shoemakers can't obtain Vibram. You might contact Perry via his web site and see if he can facilitate it for them. Or have Perry make the shoes. Or, at a pinch, buy a pair of good quality RTW dress shoes and have Perry fit them with the fineline half-soles. It might not be bespoke, but it would be an infinite improvement, in my view, over "dress walkers."

Good luck!

[Simon A]

The "Dress Vibram" sole is low profile and provides reasonable traction, the rubber is not as hard or stiff as Dainite.

[DD MacDonald]

Try Dainite's medway sole, it has more traction than the studded version. The Ridgeway sole is very good for walking, less aggressive than vibram soles, and less bulky in real life than photos suggest. If you really need the shoe for walking in country then focus on the good soles and let the choice of upper design bridge to the city/urban pursuits. DDM

[rodes]

I have one pair of casual shoes with an Edward Green Thames sole and have ordered a pair of ankle boots with the same. This would be my choice. Good traction and comfort, indistinguishable from real leather unless you are within four feet and looking closely.

[Rob O]

Very happy with my Dainite-soled EGs. They grip like glue to any surface: ice, snow, wet bar room floors, anything.

[Concordia]

I have tried EG's Dainite, and it works fine until it doesn't. One pair I wore around a fair but until the spikes wore down (you can see that starting on the pictured pair). At that point they became unconscionably slippery. I sent them back for re-soling with double leather.

[uppercase]

I don't like dainite at all.
I don't know why they make them
Slippery and no grip.
But I do like rubbery soles for long walks in the city, easier on the joints.
Better than leather though less elegant.
Those EGs pictured above are however both elegant practical and look comfortable, and I think can be worn with most anything,just a great looking shoe.

[Kayak81]

Thanks everyone for your input. I had been unaware that Dainite also made the Medway and Ridgeway soles. Those might do the trick. Would the Ridgeway offer more traction than the Medway?

I haven't yet broached the subject of Vibram soles with my shoemaker. I was a bit surprised though, that he didn't offer it as a possibility. Since I've never seen Vibram soles discussed in conjunction with bespoke shoes, I was wondering if there was some technical reason why they couldn't be offered. All things considered, I'd be willing to trade off more frequent resoling for the extra cushioning and enhanced traction that a softer sole would provide.

There seems to be a fair amount of disagreement about the traction offered by the Dainite studded soles. I've done a bit of research on other fora, and the problem seems to be making the transition from a wet outdoor environment to a smooth indoor surface. When I think about it, this is the problem that I have with my Dainite-soled shoes. They feel fine when walking outside in the rain, but then seem more slippery than leather when walking into a building with polished marble floors.

I had originally planned on cordovan for the uppers, but my shoemaker suggested a reindeer hatch grain instead. He said that the reindeer skin is stuffed with oils, so it will resist water & snow almost as well as cordovan, and the grain will help to hide salt & other stains in inclement weather. He also suggested a bellows tongue to help keep water out. I thought these suggestions made sense and it seemed that the reindeer might also be slightly cooler than cordovan in hot weather. Any thoughts on this?

[Concordia]

Is this the Cleverley reindeer? Amazing, stuff that is.