Dinner suit advice -- fishmouth/semi-peak lapels?

[radicaldog]

I need to order a dinner suit. I find midnight blue too conspicuous, so I picked the most matte black cloth in a Drapers book (something made in England, not sure about the mill). I know I want grosgrain facings and trouser bands. What I don't know is what style to go for. I'm 1,75, in my early thirties, and have a fairly slim figure, but with narrow rounded shoulders and a relatively prominent seat. A sedentary academic, yes. So, my favourite style is the DB shawl, but I fear that it would look bottom-heavy on me. My tailor also advises against it. The SB shawl with cummerbund is not bad, but I fear that the shawl lapel would make my shoulders look small. I don't like notch lapel dinner jackets, and SB peak is somewhat peacockish to my eye. So I was thinking, why shouldn't I go for a semi-peak/fishmouth dinner jacket? Why isn't this style seen more often? It seems a good compromise to me. And supposing I go with it, would the cummerbund still be appropriate? The waistcoat strikes me as somewhat staid, though I do see that the cummerbund is most at home with shawl lapels.

Any advice gratefully received.

[couch]

My own view is that a dinner suit is, these days, the most formal garment one wears with any frequency. Thus the most tied to a sense of occasion and protocol (otherwise, why not just wear a dark suit?). The SB peak is, I believe, the oldest, most classic, and most traditional formulation of the DJ, so one might argue that it's the variations that are peacockish because they insist on a greater departure from the formula via increased idiosyncrasy and or informality.

If the style is restrained (gorge not so high that peaks flap above the shoulder line, lapel width not exaggerated in either direction, etc.) I think most people would simply register the SB peak as a standard DJ, and notice how well the bespoke cut presents your figuration rather than remarking on the fact of peak lapels. On the other hand, a fishmouth lapel is unusual enough that it would be much more likely to call attention to itself--especially given that the texture of the grosgrain facing will meet the collar in an unusual line for a DJ.

Given your description of your figuration, I also submit that an SB peak would offer the greatest beneficial emphasis of shoulder width / "male V" of the available options, because even at a moderate lapel width and gorge height the peak carries the lapel line a bit farther than a notch or fishmouth, and is thus broader from tip to tip than the others.

This is doesn't mean you shouldn't get the fishmouth if you like it; but if you do it will work against the reasoning you initially presented in support of the choice. As for the cummerbund vs. waistcoat, anything that covers the waist and brace tabs is acceptable, but I don't quite see the logic of waistcoats seeming staid to you if SB peaks seem peacockish, since they developed together. I've never particularly liked cummerbunds, though I've worn them, because they seem to me a kind of ersatz garment--an inferior and partial stand-in for the military sash (Indian kamarband) they evolved from--whereas a waistcoat is still a waistcoat. (Granted, cummerbunds have apparently been worn in Britain and the U.S. since the third quarter of the 19th century, but still . . . .)

[Concordia]

Fishmouth will be a bit of a novelty-- perhaps reminding people of a spray-painted business suit or sport jacket. There's no reason to standardize everything about black tie; after all, it started out as a weird hybrid of tailcoat, smoking jacket, mess jacket, and lounge suit. Still, the by-the-book peak lapel (no vents, jetted pockets, etc.) is a very effective canvas on which to project your mood. You can certainly do a cummerbund with that, but once you get the waistcoat on you'll find that it is lower-maintenance.

The other safe option is a DB (peak lapel).

[radicaldog]

Thanks, both. I'm now leaning towards semi-peak: almost horizontal rather than upward-pointing, with a narrow V opening between lapel and collar. Acceptable compromise?

[hectorm]

I think that Couch has offered you good advice in his post.
IMHO, in order to keep it traditional but considering your physique and concerns, I would go for a one button SB with a not-too-wide shawl lapel. As Concordia hinted, I also believe a low cut waistcoat is miles ahead as a much better complement than a cummerbund.
Regarding your inclination towards a semi-peak lapel, I think it might work on your SB jacket in terms of pure aesthetics and it would certainly be original. But the semi-peak is really a notched lapel (a narrower fishmouth with the lower lip longer than the upper) and I think (yes, I´m old fashioned) that combination would attempt against the formality of the other elements of the ensemble. You said that you dislike notched lapels on DJs and that you find peak lapels on SB jackets peacokish. Do you really want to go with a notch you don´t like and semi-peacockish, then?

[rodes]

I'm with Couch and Hectorm on this. SB peak lapel all the way. You will never regret it.

[C.Lee]

There are many variations of the peaked lapel - as many as there are tailors - with some interpretations venturing towards a semi-peak, fishmouth style. Just look at the excellent illustrations of different lapel expressions posted on Stiff Collar to gain a sense of the variety. Because of this, it is somewhat difficult to have a discussion on matters of taste in the absence of a clear description, seeing that we each hold a different image or interpretation in our minds.

To radicaldog, I would ask which aspects of a SB peak lapel render it peacockish.

[C.Lee]

... The SB shawl with cummerbund is not bad, but I fear that the shawl lapel would make my shoulders look small...

Your coat will work as a whole - its components in proportion to one another and you, the wearer - to make you the young, tall, slim, and handsome man that you are. Regardless of which lapel you decide on, be sure your tailor cuts you "an ample shoulder to draw the elegant and masculine V shape."

Regards.

[hectorm]

To radicaldog, I would ask which aspects of a SB peak lapel render it peacockish.

In the link to Stiff Collar that C.Lee included in his post, Mr. Scavini -writing in French, of course- also says that the combination of SB and peak lapel (on a street suit) makes you look: "précieuse", "important", and "dandy". It sounds like "peacokish" to me.

[Tutumulut]

All

Having just attended 2 formal evening events in a row over the weekend, I was able to study the dinner jackets of the male guests extensively, something I wanted to do after following this post.

At the first event, which had an American flavour, black tie was the norm and I would say 90% of the dinner jackets had a narrow shawl lapel, either in SB or DB (and were ill fitting in most cases). A few had fish-mouthed lapels, a very few had peak lapels. It seems that the original peak lapel is no longer en vogue. The shoes were never patent leather and in most cases not even polished, something that shocked me, but I realized later that most men were active in the Oil &Gas and Mining sectors, which might explain something.

At the second event, organised to celebrate the feast of the Italian Republic, black ties were few and far between and most men chose their own interpretation of abito di ceremonia, ranging from slacks and checked shirt to dark blue suits and tie. Yet, there was a clear sense of occasion, maybe coming from the ladies who were dressed, without exception, in cocktail dress or evening gown. The men accompanying them acted as mere handbag (looking nice on their arm) or mobile table (holding a plate so the lady could nibble some food with the hand that was not holding the Prosecco).

All in all it seemed that wearing a properly fitting dinner jacket of whichever style, with appropriate shoes, would make the wearer stand out easily. In a positive sense, that is.

T

[Luca]

the second event, organised to celebrate the feast of the Italian Republic, black ties were few and far between

Although many, if not most, of us Ities tend to pride ourselves of our dress sense, I have long observed and lamented the aversion that most Italians evince towards any form of “formal” wear, be it the relatively commonplace DJ/tux or (almost completely disappeared in Italy) white tie. It is unfortunate and the (possible) presence of a higher percentage of well-made suits, compared to other comparable communities, in no way makes up for this lack of sense of occasion, IMO. In this, our Spanish cousins are much more at ease with the concept of formal dress.

[hectorm]

Having just attended 2 formal evening events in a row over the weekend, I was able to study the dinner jackets of the male guests extensively.

For better or for worse, scrutinizing dinner jackets has become one of my pastimes at black tie events. I know I should be focusing in more substantive endeavors, but the flesh is weak
I can say that along the US east coast, attachment to formality is still the norm when invitations call for black tie (save for the shoes, which is a category in which you can find anything from boots to penny loafers or double-sole brogued derbies).
And unfortunately, yes, notched lapels are quite common nowadays particularly amongst younger fellows (which I blame on the missleading trend generated by the "tuxedo" rental services currently available).

[VRaivio]

radicaldog, there are many other details apart from the very visible lapel with which to express your vision. Fishmouth is rarely seen outside France, and mainly used by a few Parisian tailoring legends so it's a rare sight still. Instead of the lapel, you could opt for, say, a strongly rolling lapel line, very open quarters, two cuff buttons or an eccentric fold in your 'kerchief. These are small points, yes, but the dinner suit of clothes is among the most codified garments still in use. The Hollywood folk and entertainers have their own way, it's best to play safe for others.