Choppin & Lodge?

[Badden]

^ It's a fair point, but to elaborate I live in NYC and will, in all probability have no future opportunity to wear a morning suit. If the case was for black tie, I would certainly agree - I bought mine from KH&L, and despite using it only 1-2 times per year, have found it a worthy investment.

[Man at C&A]

On days where my trudge from Bank Station takes me directly to Lloyd's rather than via the office I pass the Choppin & Lodge shop. The window displays look very nice indeed and a couple of times I've popped in and discussed odd trousers. I've not ordered anything as yet, but it's not something I'd rule out for the future. The vibe is right about the place.

If you're ordering in London then I'd recommend you also pop in to the Cad and the Dandy shop which is located at the other end of the alley that C&L are located on, and then ponder your options at the George & Vulture. The Cad offer a full bespoke service for a comparible price point to Choppin & Lodge. They also visit New York if that's a consideration. C&D are my go to house simply because they've been in the area longer than C&L and our relationship has already developed.

I'd disagree with the suggestions that you need a venerable SR house and everything else will be second-rate. I've no intention of paying for an illustrious history and ruinously expensive rents.

[hectorm]

There is off Row and off Row - tailors doing some manufacturing short cuts to save work hours paid by the client, or tailors working off Row and having lower prices because they have less overhead than the big houses. To illustrate my case, taking popular Steed as an example

.. won't be anywhere close to the standard of the other off row tailors such as steed,...

Well gentlemen, once again, we have to define what an "off Row tailor" is.
I consider Mr. DeBoise a true Savile Row tailor, even more than many other tailors working on that street. And regarding Steed, I know about the shops up in Cumbria (which surely must help in cutting costs), but the basement at No. 12 is a full fledged Savile Row store and even Mr. DeBoise himself advertises Steed as a Savile Row house on their website.
By the way, is that Slewfoot on the History of Steed page of that website?

[hsw9001]

^ It's a fair point, but to elaborate I live in NYC and will, in all probability have no future opportunity to wear a morning suit. If the case was for black tie, I would certainly agree - I bought mine from KH&L, and despite using it only 1-2 times per year, have found it a worthy investment.

You can always wear your morning coat to the annual Easter parade.

[bond_and_beyond]

Dear Hectorm,

well said, you have a point here. I would want my morning suit coming from the best possible tailor, regardless of its use - although it sounds a bit ridiculous - if I would need an occasional car once a month, I would go for Beetle not Bentley

But I also understand Badden. To help things a bit: There is off Row and off Row - tailors doing some manufacturing short cuts to save work hours paid by the client, or tailors working off Row and having lower prices because they have less overhead than the big houses. To illustrate my case, taking popular Steed as an example - he is offering a 20% reduction on his normal prices for LL members, and this on prices that are already 20-30% lower than the average Row establishment. Now this is the kind of offer I would consider first...

Cheers, David

Isn't the Steed discount only for LL cloth? Ie the "discount" is because you bring your own cloth, and thus the price of cloth is taken out of the price for the garment?

BB

[davidhuh]

Isn't the Steed discount only for LL cloth? Ie the "discount" is because you bring your own cloth, and thus the price of cloth is taken out of the price for the garment?

BB

Dear BB,

according to the website, you are most likely right, this discount applies to LL cloth, so please accept my apologies. But still, Steed's normal prices are attractive while the quality is excellent, and they include cloth.

Cheers, David

[bond_and_beyond]

Dear BB,

according to the website, you are most likely right, this discount applies to LL cloth, so please accept my apologies. But still, Steed's normal prices are attractive while the quality is excellent, and they include cloth.

Cheers, David

Thanks David.

From what I understand a two piece suit from Steed now starts at above GBP 3000 (including VAT) for non-LL cloth. I know that this is lower than SR, but it is still a hefty chunk of change

What Graham Browne (and Choppin & Lodge I believe, though I have never used them) offer are bespoke cut suits (individual patterns etc) that are made in London (in GB's case they now have a work room in the basement, in addition to using independent makers), for a little less than GBP 1000. In terms of fit they should be on par with most other tailors (but perhaps require a bit more input from the client than SR tailors would), but the make is of course not on an SR level. They do more by machine (though for example the canvas in the chest is done by hand according to Russel), and spend much less time in making the garment (for obvious reasons).

I think we should be happy that such operations exist today, as they provide a more realistic, price wise, alternative for a wider group of the "suit wearing public" in addition to of course providing a steady demand for cloth (GB for example mostly stock British cloth) and help keep alive a British workforce of tailors, seamstresses etc.

I know GB does a lot of formal wear, for example they have supplied the Lord Mayor of London with some of his white tie gear.

I cannot imagine why a GB suit would not last as long as a SR one (given that it is made in much the same way, using the same materials, but with less handwork), so I don't see that as an argument against it.

If one wants the very, very best, and price is of no concern, one of course goes to SR (or SR alumni). If one wants a good fitting, bespoke cut suit GB (and I would presume C&L) is a good alternative. Individual preference I suppose...

BB

[bjs]

Some good points here BB. We are lucky in London to still have bespoke options at different price-points. If only more of the London "suit wearing public" spent their money on off-Row bespoke rather than over-priced RTW from the likes of Armani then I think the traditional cloth merchants might be in a better position financially. I do worry about the impact recent industry consolidation (seemingly all roads lead to Harrisons?) will have on availability and choice of decent cloth in coming years.

[hectorm]

You can always wear your morning coat to the annual Easter parade.

Cheeky proposal.
I attended this year (although not in morning suit) and spent a full hour in front of Saint Patrick´s. It´s not what it used to be, at least not as I remembered it from the tough NYC days of the early 80s when people needed some respite and wore nice clothes before heading to the Bloody Marys. Nowadays it just seems mostly funny/tacky hats and tons of tourists. I did see a couple of old chaps in morning coats but their attitude was more "costume" than anything. People were having fun though.

[Wasser50]

There seams to be some of speculation of the difference between CL, GB and on row so I thought I'd give some feed back of actual experience.

From my experience the main differences between both CL/GB and on row tailors is the fit and shape rather than the hand work as I doubt any of is would know the amount of internal hand work unless we riped the garment apart.

The fit of CL and GB were consistanly inferior to the row. Although they were accommodating to try every time I returned they were just not able to achieve a fit anywhere near my experience of the row. The canvassing of my CL/GB jackets seam to over power the cloth and rather than support the cloth seam to move independently in a bad way.

The finish and fitting of the CL/GB are not to the same level as my row experience or that of Karl and Steed , with vering inconsistencies ( yes tried more than once with them).

I'm not a tailor so can tell you the reSosns why the differences only to say although substantially cheaper I don't wear the garments they made for me so I guess they are actually the most expensive I've commissioned on a cost per wear basis.

[Frans]

... In terms of fit they should be on par with most other tailors (but perhaps require a bit more input from the client than SR tailors would), but the make is of course not on an SR level.

Which other tailors do you mean? What is your experience with those? Thanks

[bond_and_beyond]

... In terms of fit they should be on par with most other tailors (but perhaps require a bit more input from the client than SR tailors would), but the make is of course not on an SR level.

Which other tailors do you mean? What is your experience with those? Thanks

Frans,

My point was that at least with GB my experience is that you need to provide a bit of input of what you want, what you think looks good on you etc, as they do not provide that much guidance. Those I know that have used SR tailors (I have not myself) tell of receiving more guidance / direction in this regard.

BB

[Scot]

I'm not a tailor so can tell you the reSosns why the differences only to say although substantially cheaper I don't wear the garments they made for me so I guess they are actually the most expensive I've commissioned on a cost per wear basis.

This mirrors my experience pretty closely. I have used a few tailors in my time, for bespoke and MTM, and I too wish I had found the SR tailors first and spent more on less. Of course a higher price doesn't always mean better quality, and neither does the location of the shop. In the end it is the skill of the artisans and the ethos of the firm that really makes the difference. It is difficult to make judgements about these things without personal experience of the firm, except through the recommendation of someone trusted, but I would support the general contention that cost cutting in bespoke commissioning does not lead to happy outcomes, financially or sartorially.

[Luca]

An interesting viewpoint (above). In my (very limited) MtM experience, the guidance aspect was there toquite a satisfactory extent for me; perhaps someone who really has little inkling would require more. Where I found a serious variation was in the delivery of that original brief. I have an Ede & Ravenscroft MtM that came out very, very well (with two tweaks post-fitting) and another commission from a less well known house which I was disappointed with.

I am, actually, currently ordering from Choppin and Lodge (first fitting soon) and their engagement at the original measurement / fabric selection seemed positive to me. The only doubt I have is that I get the sense that their order book has grown v. rapidly and this may impede if not quality of delivery at least timeliness. We'll see.

[hectorm]

What Graham Browne (and Choppin & Lodge I believe, though I have never used them) offer are bespoke cut suits (individual patterns etc) that are made in London (in GB's case they now have a work room in the basement, in addition to using independent makers), for a little less than GBP 1000.

Bespoke suits made in London for under GBP 1000?
It sounds too good to be true.
For around that price I had my good share of tailors who used to cut my own patterns and then put the suit together in obscure basements with the help of assistants and using a combination of hand work (lining, buttonholes, inner canvases) and machine work (mostly long seams), but all this was in other corners of the world. In London, the figures (cloth?, London tailor wages?, shop lease? fittings? some profit?) just don't add up. Or if they do, then the short cuts in manufacture would have to be so tremendous that the quality of the garment should surely reflect it.
I'd approach this option very cautiously.