Traditional tweed suit project

[hectorm]

... following my own experience, I would strongly suggest that you have them lined, at least on the front.

Please could you elaborate? I'm very curious to know your reasoning.

Dear Mr. H: of course you deserve an answer and the best possible one has been given by Russell in his excellent post above. I fully endorse what he had to say regarding linings and have very little to add on the other topics.
If something, I would say that a tweed suit worn with shooting socks looks better IMO with breeks than with plus-twos, resulting in a neater line without extra folds of cloth. Also breeks have an added esthetic advantage over the plus-twos when the trousers are made of a cloth (moleskin for instance) other than the jacket's tweed.
Some fine tuning: perhaps you have noticed that some plus-two wearers tighten their trousers incorrectly letting the four inches of cloth below the knee to hang straight down the leg covering a good amount of the socks. This does not look good. The correct way should be to tighten the trousers immediately below the knee letting only a two-inch fold covering the strap and the top of the socks.

[Mr Hillier]

Dear Hectorm,

Thank your for your reply agreeing with Russell.

Having scoured the forums, it seems that your views accord with the majority of the members.

However, there are a couple of dissenting opinions:

What to look for in a trousering?*
http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =4&t=11077

I wonder why you would refuse to have your rough tweed trousers lined, ever. Which are the disadvantages you discussed with Mr. Mahon? I think I may learn something here.

Dear Hectorm,

If I remember well, he simply said that it was something he would not recommend. The cloth he would be working with was comfortable to wear without lining for most people. So far, it works fine for me, even with the tweeds and flannels mentioned. But I will check with him if he has any specific reasons I don't remember - this was 3 years ago when we discussed it.

Cheers, David

Malcolm Plews was never one for lining trousers either - said it made them difficult to press really well. He would make a "drop-in" lining that you could remove from the leg of the trousers for pressing. Works quite well with tweed.

Finmeresco makes very nice warm weather trousers and is perfectly comfortable without lining.

Harris Tweed
http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... 31&t=10491

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but the Harris Tweeds and Cheviots with a slightly rough handle can cause irritation to the legs even if lined. The seams on the inside leg tend to chafe, lined or unlined. The solution I have found is to wear knee-length boxer shorts, which are cheap and easy to have made, and long socks. You can then enjoy the warmth and robustness of your tweeds without the need for lining. If you are walking distances, hiking or hunting in your trousers, lining will just make you hot and sweaty, and then chilly when you cool down.

Most of the Harris Tweed I have seen over the past decade is in the 13-15 oz weight; this is the spec that sells in the broader market. It is difficult to produce a tweed on a Hattersley Loom that is durable, drapes well, holds its shape and is warm at this weight; it is pushing 19th century technology to perform a task it was not designed for. If you can find 20 oz vintage Harris Tweed that is densely woven, snap it up.

I think the topic is getting interesting. At this point, all my instincts and experience say 'don't line them'. I am honestly and sincerely of the opinion that the trousers and breeks will be more comfortable and practical unlined.

The comfort question is an interesting one, and is often talked about in terms of 'sensitivity of the skin'. At the risk of taking the discussion into completely new territory, perhaps 'point of view' is equally important. By that I mean, perhaps a similar subjective experience is outside the bounds of acceptability for one person, and well within those bounds for another. The perfect example of this would be food, one person can honestly and sincerely enjoy eating something which is completely unacceptable to another. The food doesn't change, but the subjective experience differs radically.

All through this discussion, I have been experimenting with wool next to the skin. Yesterday, in the interests of scientific research, I wore my tweed wrapped tightly around my legs like a skirt while I cooked and ate dinner and did the washing up. I struggle to describe the sensation. There is no doubt that when the tweed first meets the skin, it is an unfamiliar sensation. I hesitate to use the word 'scratchy', because scratchy has a negative connotation, and the feeling I am describing is not unpleasant. Perhaps a 'comfortable scratchiness' would sum it up best. Like a firm massage which seems as though it is painful, and yet is incredibly pleasant.

I have also been wearing my coarsest wool sweater around the house with nothing underneath it. The sweater is a heavy rough Irish wool. I have to say that after a few minutes, even wearing this sweater is surprisingly comfortable. I would not however want to wear it in this manner for extended periods, as I think the rough and heavy crew neck would rapidly feel uncomfortable around the neck.

Of course, the reason for these interesting experiments is simply to decide about the issue of linings. My conclusions are as follows:

To begin with, sewn in Bemburg (or similar) linings are out, for reasons discussed ad nauseam. No way.

However, I do have to acknowledge that some room to move with is necessary. If I have my trousers unlined, and to my surprise, they turn out to be much more uncomfortable that I thought, what do I do?

There are several options which I am considering.

Firstly, are there any other lining materials which could be used? How about cotton? Cotton is definitely not good against the skin in an outdoor context, it holds moisture, sticks to the skin when wet, and is a poor insulator when damp. Or silk? How does silk perform as an outdoor base layer, ie as an insulator and when wet or damp?

Secondly, it has been mentioned that from a comfort point of view, the biggest issue is the seams. How about covering the seams with some sort of piping?

Thirdly, drop-in linings have also been mentioned. This sounds like a great idea. I assume we are talking about something like this, from Windsor's clothes Part 1 http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... 90&p=10034



This looks like a great way to cover one's bases. It wouldn't be practical for all conditions, but provides a very useful extra set of options.

Lastly, all of this is dependent on what is worn underneath the trousers. Long boxers or long johns (wool of course!) would be my plan, depending on season, so in any event my legs will be covered to the mid thigh.

So, the conclusion at this point is, I will ask for piped or covered seams in the upper inside leg and crotch of the trousers and breeks. I will also discuss the possibility of a drop-in lining and see how feasible this is. Other than that, the trousers and breeks will be unlined. Coupled with the possibility of wearing something covering at least part of the legs underneath, I think this will be a very workable, practical and comfortable approach.

There, job done! The anticipation is building to a crescendo.

One final question, what were Mallory's tweeds lined with when he ascended Everest? What did Carter line his tweeds with in Egypt?

And, I have just realised that I have been wearing my rough Irish sweater with nothing underneath for two hours without even noticing it...

As always, the members' thoughts are eagerly anticipated.

Merry Christmas everyone!

[alden]

Thirdly, drop-in linings have also been mentioned. This sounds like a great idea. I assume we are talking about something like this, from Windsor's clothes Part 1 http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... 90&p=10034

I like the feel of rough wool on my skin, so I would do the trousers unlined. But the idea of a buttoned, drop in, down to the knee lining in heavy Irish linen shirting is stunning. I will have to give this a try.

Cheers

[Mr Hillier]

Hooray! I'm not alone in liking the feel of my tweed against the skin.

What properties would linen have as a lining as opposed to, say, cotton?

[alden]

There is a good deal of discussion and information regarding linen vs cotton here:

http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... 31&t=10830

Cheers

[Mr Hillier]

What good timing! I was just about to look around for some new shirts. Now I have a new avenue to explore. Linen seems to be the wool of the vegetable world.

And of course, the answer to the issue of linings in tweeds is neatly answered.

[Russell]

Dear Mr Hiller,

I'll be interested in seeing the results of your Windsor inspired drop in 'lining'.

Speaking generally - not directed at yourself - one important & valid point Hectorm made in his last post was that no matter how long breeks, plus 2’s or 4's are cut they all fasten at the same point just below the kneecap. To do otherwise definitely doesn't, as Hectorm mentions - look good.

The odd joker will even wander about without the ends tied at all, looking something like this as a result



I don't know what the Duke think's he's wearing but at least Mrs Simpson has a nice coat.

Regards
Russell

[Mr Hillier]

Dear Members,

The suit has been ordered.

There have been some disappointments along the way. The first is that apparently my cloth is not quite sufficient for the four pieces, so the breeks have been sacrificed. When I bought the fabric, I sought the advice of another tailor on how much I would need, and bought in accordance with the advice. In the interim, a second tailor also agreed that the fabric would be sufficient for four pieces. However, the tailor who is now making the suit was of another opinion. Fair enough, he has his style and way of cutting, and as he explained to me, there are ways and ways of cutting a suit, and whereas some tailors may have been able to do it, for him it would have been by cutting corners.

This, of course, changes the suit fundamentally in a sense, which is a great shame. However, the tweed is still great tweed, and I would want a suit made of it anyway. I very much doubt I will ever again commission the four-piece I had in mind, but as least I have gone far enough to lay that dream to rest. I will have plenty of cloth to have a cap made, but without the breeks there seems little point.

As for the features of the suit, there is nothing controversial or tricky about the configuration that was finally decided on. The tailor insisted on pleats in the front of the trousers - single, inward facing - and strongly suggested side adjusters and buttons for braces, which I accepted. The idea of a drop-in lining for the trousers was rejected outright, and so the trousers will be fully unlined. The waistcoat will be high fastening for warmth, with six buttons, no lapels. The jacket will be exactly as discussed, although the internal envelope pocket will be a large patch pocket, as according to the tailor, a large pocket let into the lining creates weakness. I can understand this argument. There was a surcharge of around 10% for the action back, which I was not expecting.

One thing I did struggle with was getting across the idea that the jacket should be large enough to take a thick sweater underneath. The tailor in question is a well-known Hong Kong tailor, and in retrospect, it is obvious that the problem was probably an inability on his part to conceptualise the practical necessities of clothing in a cold climate.

One question to be answered is, should the trousers be cut for shoes or boots? I have been advised that trousers cut for boots should be longer. Generally, I like a short trouser with shoes, but I do anticipate wearing these trousers with boots as much as with shoes, so I'm wondering where the best compromise will lie.

I also think I will have to be very wary about the functionality of the action back.

Anyway, there it is. There will be a fitting around a week after the order. I will faithfully report all progress.

[hectorm]

... the breeks have been sacrificed.

No big deal. I know you had envisioned your perfect 4-piece suit, but the "ensemble" will work the same (even better IMO) with plain color moleskin breeks for your daytime outdoors activities.

One question to be answered is, should the trousers be cut for shoes or boots? I have been advised that trousers cut for boots should be longer.

The only kind of boots you should be wearing with a long trouser tweed suit are ankle boots with a country shoe style profile. In this case, the length of the trousers will make little difference, and while standing, nobody would be able to tell if you´re in shoes or ankle boots. Shooting or hiking boots are not to be worn with your long tweed trousers, but with breeks, socks, etc.
Given the rather tall profile of sole and heel in country shoes and ankle boots, I would err on the longer side.

[Mr Hillier]

Dear Hectorm,

Yes, I think moleskin breeks will work fine. To be very honest, they would have been the part of the ensemble which probably would have seen the least use.

The boots are have are exactly as you describe, ankle boots with a country shoe profile, and you are right, they have a 'commando' sole, and do have a very high profile. So, as you suggest, let's err on the longer side. In any case, I will take both boots and shoes to the first fitting and see how things look.

Happy New Year!

[hectorm]

Happy New Year to you too!
And please let us know how your tweed suit project went once you have it.

[Mr Hillier]

First Fitting



First fitting yesterday, all went very nicely. I can see that I will want to wear this suit all the time, in situations where a tweed suit is totally inappropriate.

The trousers have ended up with two pleats, because that is what the man in charge felt would work best. I have to say, they look great, and the pleats look like they will work fine. The trousers are much fuller in the leg than any trousers I have had before, but I think that is totally appropriate with this heavy cloth. I like the feeling of the unlined trousers.

It was heartbreaking in a way to fit the jacket for the waistcoat, then put on a heavy sweater and watch as the armholes were dropped and a decision to let the sleeves out was made. However, whichever way I turn it around, if I can't wear a heavy sweater underneath this jacket, the whole suit will be a very different beast. Some outdoor functionality is essential. Incidentally, the amount of freedom of movement that the action back gives is quite amazing.

The only other adjustment was to the height of the gorge, which was also lowered a fraction to ensure that the tab collar closes properly and comfortably.

[hectorm]

I can see that I will want to wear this suit all the time, in situations where a tweed suit is totally inappropriate.

You'll have plenty of opportunities to wear it more than appropriately. Actually almost every winter and fall weekend that involves leisure or sports activities calls for a suit like that. If you get used to wear it often -despite what other gentlemen are wearing around you- you'll soon want a second tweed suit, and a third.... In lighter cloth, more tailored, etc... It's addictive in a good sense, and enjoyable, but you have to break the ice and jump into it.
I'm glad to see that the first fitting went well.
And don't forget the "odd" moleskin breeks (that you can buy RTW for sure). From the start, they will make your suit more versatile and spare your tweed trousers from the rougher moments.

[Mr Hillier]

Yes, Hectorm, I can see you are a tweed believer. I am definitely starting to feel a Need for Tweed, and it feels very very right...

[Mr Hillier]

Second Fitting

To those who are interested, all went well. I think everyone is enjoying the project.



Apologies for the quality of the photographs, it seems the the man in charge knows clothing much better than photography.

Everything looks good to me, in particular the waistcoat and trousers. There is something about the proportions and angles on both that all looks superb. The fit of the jacket is quite loose unless there is a heavy sweater underneath, as intended. I am definitely going to enjoy wearing this suit very much.

There has been one change agreed upon at this stage, which is to replace the tab collar with something like this:



The reason is that the geometry of the tab collar just wasn't working. In any case, I prefer the appearance of a plain lapel, so the decision was made to arrange for something like the button-on tab in the picture to be fixed under the collar, and no tab on the lapel.

Good times!