Traditional tweed suit project

[cathach]

My elastic support strap goes straight from armpit to bottom of the pocket without the benefit of a button. I have to slide the laptop sideways stretching the strap and then, down in. Overall my underarm game pocket is bigger but it's not self finished with a handsome besom opening like Mr. Hillier's.
Regarding thornproof capability: the only thornproof I own is a Porter & Harding at almost 20 oz. and it's a beast. But this one is not the jacket with the game pocket. The "game" carrier it’s a Holland & Sherry corduroy at around 17/18 oz.I believe. My laptop is almost 3 pounds heavy and the jacket does not flinch.

Just as an aside, these large pockets are also known as 'poachers pockets', the idea being that you could get a salmon in it. The supporting strap can also be hidden under the lining but the visible strap is a nice version. Such pockets used for holding papers are also known as 'briefing pockets' being used by barristers in the past to hold their briefs.

[hectorm]

The pictures of large inside pockets I posted are simply images found during my research, they are not my jackets.

Sorry again, Mr. H. Not only didn´t I pay attention to the pictures the first time around but now I see that neither did I pay enough attention to the captions the second time.

If my recollection is correct, that picture comes from the possibly now-extinct Brookster website, doesn´t it?

Luis, you are absolutely right. That particular pleated pocket was an example of the many useful and handsome options you could choose from the MTM service at Bookster. As Mr. Hillier says, it gives you some of the possibilities of a below pocket, like a buttoned flap and some expansion, but it´s still flat.

[couch]

Just as an aside, these large pockets are also known as 'poachers pockets', the idea being that you could get a salmon in it.

Or, less soggily, a game bird or hare.

Which puts me in mind of a November 1959 'Field and Stream' review of 'Lady Chatterley's Lover,' in which it is demonstrated that a review always says more about the reviewer than the book under review (or about their sense of humor):

Although written many years ago, Lady Chatterley's Lover has just been re-issued by Grove Press, and this fictional account of the day-to-day life of an English game-keeper is still of considerable interest to outdoor-minded readers, as it contains many passages on pheasant raising, the apprehending of poachers, ways to control vermin, and other chores and duties of the professional game-keeper.

Unfortunately, one is obliged to wade through many pages of extraneous material in order to discover and savour these sidelights on the management of a Midland shooting estate, and in this reviewer’s opinion, the book cannot take the place of J.R. Miller's "Practical Gamekeeper”.

Happy holidays, all.

[Mr Hillier]

As an itinerant vermin man myself, I am suddenly seized with passion, and will read 'Lady Chatterley's Lover' forthwith.

I particularly hope for any information on the trapping of stoats and weasels.

[Mr Hillier]

I have recently discussed this suit at length with one tailor, who was perfectly happy to attempt both pleated fronts on the trousers and trousers with side adjusters and no belt loops. The tailor in question may not have had much experience of making this kind of suit. Does anyone have any views on this?

Also, a popular method of fastening the bottom of the legs on the plus-twos appears to be a leather strap. The tailor I spoke to did not feel confident of sourcing a suitable leather strap. What other methods would be acceptable? Buttons? Velcro?

For the straps on the sides of the trousers and at the bottom of the plus-twos, how about a canvas of similar colour? This would avoid the problems with making straps out of fabrics too thick for the purpose. Would anyone have any objection to this?

As always, the members' views would be very much appreciated.

Mr H

[Russell]

Also, a popular method of fastening the bottom of the legs on the plus-twos appears to be a leather strap. The tailor I spoke to did not feel confident of sourcing a suitable leather strap. What other methods would be acceptable? Buttons? Velcro?

For the straps on the sides of the trousers and at the bottom of the plus-twos, how about a canvas of similar colour? This would avoid the problems with making straps out of fabrics too thick for the purpose. Would anyone have any objection to this?

As always, the members' views would be very much appreciated.

Mr H

Mr Hiller,

I’ve worn (and worn out) quite a few pairs of plus 2’s & breeks but I’ve never had leather straps on the hems to close them – not that there’d be much wrong with leather I suppose but it’s not a common method.

The usual method is a tongue of the parent fabric going through a buckle (normally the self-tightening sliding type without a pin) or with a Velcro strip.
The more traditional way is the buckle of course but some people prefer Velcro.

I think at the moment I’ve got a couple of pairs with sliding buckles plus one pair with Velcro & one with a pin type buckle. All fastening strips are from the parent fabric.

There shouldn’t be a problem with fabric thickness.

Regards
Russell

[Mr Hillier]

Dear Russell,

Thank you for your views, your comments are very useful.

May I ask, how do your plus-twos and breeks fasten at the waist? Belt loops or side-adjusters?

Regards,

Mr H

[Russell]

May I ask, how do your plus-twos and breeks fasten at the waist? Belt loops or side-adjusters?

Regards,

Mr H

Dear Mr Hiller,

Some have taken braces but most use a belt. Side adjusters would no doubt be fine as well for general wear.

Mine are used for heavy duty sporting use & I tend to wear a belt as it is also used to hang waxed cotton leggings from (the short ones Barbour make) - this probably isn't a consideration for yourself though.

Regards
Russell

[hectorm]

...a popular method of fastening the bottom of the legs on the plus-twos appears to be a leather strap. What other methods would be acceptable? Buttons? Velcro?

Dear Mr. H.:
So far I have resisted the temptation of wearing classic plus-twos, but occasionally I wear RTW breeks (slimmer, shorter, and fastened just below the knee without cloth fold) with my knee-high rubber boots. The knee belts (without holes) are made of the same fabric and tightened through a small narrow flat buckle without pin. I would not recommend leather, nor buttons or velcro closures.
With regards to the waist, given the nature of those trousers and since some physical activity is expected while wearing them, I would suggest you wear a belt instead of side adjusters. One of mine even has a non-slide waist band built in by the manufacturer.
Finally and following my own experience, I would strongly suggest that you have them lined, at least on the front.

[Mr Hillier]

Dear Hectorm, thank you for your comments, they are very useful.

You do say,

... following my own experience, I would strongly suggest that you have them lined, at least on the front.

Please could you elaborate? I'm very curious to know your reasoning.

Personally, I have found that I do not like lined trousers. Any trousers I have made up are now without linings, and some of my older trousers have had their linings cut out of them. This is due to preferring the feel of worsted on my legs to Bemburg or whatever linings usually are. I also do find that trousers wear warmer in winter and cooler in summer without linings, and if it is really cold, wool long johns eliminate any need for linings. I do seem to remember Alden also saying that he does not have tweed trousers lined. Of course, I could stick to protocol, have the trousers and plus-twos lined, and cut them out at some later date when they start to irritate me.

Also, following on from the questions on the belt loops/side adjusters dilemma, what are the members' views on the height of the waist on the trousers and on the plus twos? Should they be the same?

For my shape, a belt only seems to work well with a reasonably low waist which sits on my hips, and trousers of this cut do not work at all with braces. I'm wondering if a slightly higher waist on the trousers would be a good idea from the point of view of warmth, there is nothing worse than a cold draught seeping in between the top of your trousers and the bottom of your waistcoat. But, the higher waist doesn't work with a belt...

What is the technical difference between plus-twos and breeks? I have worn tweed breeks before, and in my mind, this suit has a pair of matching tweed breeks. I'd rather have a slimmer cut below the knee. Is it appropriate to have a suit cut with breeks as opposed to plus-twos, if there is such a difference?

[Russell]

Dear Mr Hiller,

The requirement for lining trousers is partly down to practicality & partly to personal preference – the ratio between the two varies with the use of the garment .

For someone using trousers in a relatively urban setting then personal preference is dominant as the smooth cloth used doesn’t particularly need to be lined nor is there normally any need for a lining for added warmth. The opposite end of the spectrum would be a pair of breeks, plus 2’s or whatever made from a coarse tweed used in the hills for winter shooting. Here practicality reigns & a lining is almost universal both for warmth & to stop chaffing from the tweed during a day spent moving on foot in hard terrain. You will have to judge where your intended use of the garment fit’s in to the spectrum & then temper your own preferences with practical considerations. If you don’t like lined trousers, nor suffer from any irritation of the skin due to the cloth rubbing then don’t line your breeks.

There’s a big difference between an unlined smooth worsted & unlined tweed as regards potential chaffing though – whether this causes a problem is of course relative to an persons skin sensitivity.

As regards waist height etc – your body shape will dictate what works best just as it does for normal trousers. Braces certainly work with plus 2’s & will hold anything up. Their use defines the height & profile of the waist. Side adjusters need trousers to come up to the natural waist – if the wearers body shape doesn’t have a defined waist then they are best avoided (especially if strenuous activity is envisaged) otherwise the buckle type should be ok if properly fitted. A belt allows you more freedom as regards waist height but for outdoor garments err on the high side if you can.

More often than not I need to wear a belt when wearing breeks or plus 2’s (to support leggings) so for me practical concerns dictate the issue of belt or braces. You very likely won’t have this constraint.

Going back to methods of closing the bottoms of breeks & plus 2’s; another possible alternative is the laced gusset. I associate this method with riding britches or European hiking breeks rather than traditional tweed sporting attire though. Whilst I prefer a pin-less buckle there’s nothing wrong with the tongue/strap retrained by a Velco strip although Velco seems out of place on tailored clothing. One potential objection to Velco would be that the tongue/strap could get pulled open when negotiating undergrowth full of briars – then again briars would cling to any type of fastening. In practice it’s not much of a problem as the wise man would be wearing thorn-proof legging over his breeks if pushing through briars. In addition the top of the sock (normally) covers the strap at the bottom of the breeks – at least in the UK. Although many people differ the more common & dare I say traditional British way of dealing with the top of the socks is to pull them up & over the bottom of the breeks, then tie a woven cloth garter around the leg just above the buckle & strap on the breeks – then roll the top of the sock back down over the garter. The loose ends of the garter hang down below the sock top & give a little flash of colour. The garter ties the breeks to the socks

A suit is fine with breeks, plus 2’s or plus 4’s – it’s your choice.

As regards the difference between breeks, plus 2’s & plus 4’s; well breeks (more correctly ‘knee britches’) hang to just below the knee cap whilst supposedly plus 2’s hang down an extra 2 inches & plus fours an extra 4 inches. In reality there seems to be some rather more liberal interpretations – suffice to say breeks are ‘clean’ around the knee; plus ‘2s have a definite amount of surplus cloth hanging down & plus 4’s have even more. If you are having some made for you then go for what looks right for you – plus 0.5’s or whatever.

Regards
Russell

[Mr Hillier]

Dear Russell,

Thank you for your long and informative post. This suit has been five years in the planning, off and on, and well over 20 since it was first thought of. I consider myself reasonably well informed about clothing from a layman's point of view, and yet, after all this time, I am still following new and unimagined trains of thought and learning a tremendous amount from the members here.

The issue of support for leggings is extremely relevant, and on this basis I think a belt must be the only way to go. This will also make the trousers and knee britches more flexible as regards being worn independently. Is provision for both belt and braces completely impossible?

As for lining, I am typing this trouserless and wrapped in tweed in an attempt to ascertain the potential side-effects of rough wool against the skin. I have to say that I find the feel of wool very reassuring. Though it can be scratchy at first, there is to me what can only be described as a harmonious interaction between skin and wool which is one of the most rewarding things about wearing clothes made from good quality natural materials. At this point in the experiment, I would go as far as to say that the tweed feels invigorating and refreshing and I have no fear of unlined garments in this cloth - it would seem a great shame to deprive myself of the opportunity to interact and experience this majestic fabric on this level. However, I will consider this issue carefully, as it is not possible to line garments which have been made unlined. If anyone has an unlined tweed suit, an opinion would be very useful.

Regarding the issue of linings for warmth, I must respectfully say that I remain unconvinced. I have never seen a trouser lining which is not a waste of weight from this point of view. Also, in my experience, linings restrict the flow of air and are unbearable in hot weather. I would much rather wear something underneath the trousers or breeks which actually earns its keep in terms of its insulating properties should the need arise. One thing I do demand of my clothing is practicality in relation to weather, whether it be hot or cold, and in most years I have to deal with summer temperatures of over 40˚c and winter temperatures of minus 30˚c. I wouldn't want lined trousers at either of those extremes, or indeed if the trousers got wet, unless there is some particular lining material of which I am unaware.

In any case, an appointment and travel plans have been made, and within a week tweed and shears will meet.

In any case, Merry Christmas to the members!

[redingote]

I like to have belt loops on my breeks for practical reasons. When out hunting, I hung a knife / dagger and ammunition holders on the belt. This is admittedly more important for the wild boar hunting we do in continental Europe than for bird shooting.

[Concordia]

A random question: are plus-twos cut especially differently from normal trousers? I.e., if you had a pair of trousers that had been damaged at the cuff, could it easily be modified for plus-two duty?

[Melcombe]

A random question: are plus-twos cut especially differently from normal trousers? I.e., if you had a pair of trousers that had been damaged at the cuff, could it easily be modified for plus-two duty?

So far as I can tell (having had similar thoughts about a 'conversion' project), RTW breeks / plus-twos are indeed truncated versions of normal trousers, albeit with slightly more close fitting lower thighs than might otherwise be the case. Understandable, perhaps, if you're running a digitally engineered production line in a clothing factory.

I can't help but suppose that this is a disadvantage for 2 reasons that would be readily overcome by a bespoke version :

1 - Since you will be wearing shooting stockings or similar on your lower legs, a particularly close-fitting cut of the breeks looks good IMHO.

2 - Breeks / plus-twos are for wearing whilst being active. To my mind there would be no more comfortable arrangement than (possibly fully elasticated) braces keeping them up, with a high fishtail rear and no (or very soft) waist band.

A shooting companion more than once turned up wearing a pair of deerskin leather breeks of this design that he had acquired in Germany. They proved enormously practical : durable, supremely comfortable, he said, and warm even when rain-soaked (just as well, the shoot was in Yorkshire). As for tweed, I can't imagine ever coping with unlined : I suspect unlined tweed trousers would wear quite quickly on the front thigh, from inside, just through normal wear? - let alone the comfort issue!