How is "Covert" as in "Covert Coat" pronounced

[Julian]

This is a really dumb question but it's dumber to remain in ignorance.

Is a covert coat pronounced as:

cover-t with "cover" as in covering something up ("He covered his face with a mask"), also similar to "Thou shalt not covet" in one of the ten commandments?

or is it pronounced as:

covert as in "He was involved in covert operations"?

- Julian

[couch]

The former--as in a thicket in which game can hide. Often in referring to the coat or its usual cloth, the final T is not pronounced (sounds like "cover coat" or "cover cloth").

[Russell]

Not a dumb question at all.

Who would know that that a village not that far from me called ‘Cholmondeley’ is pronounced ‘Chumley’ – if they didn’t ask.

Speaking as a British country sportsman – it’s pronounced “cover”. Just as a small wood or copse may be called ‘cover’ but spelt ‘covert’.

Sporting use gave rise to the name of the coat.

Regards
Russell

[Concordia]

Often in referring to the coat or its usual cloth, the final T is not pronounced (sounds like "cover coat" or "cover cloth").

As in "Colbert Report"?

[couch]

Often in referring to the coat or its usual cloth, the final T is not pronounced (sounds like "cover coat" or "cover cloth").

As in "Colbert Report"?

Ha! I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps we should take up a collection to send him one so he could wear it as an inside joke.

[alden]

I always thought Covert came from the French couvert....also no "t" pronounced.

Cheers

[hectorm]

Gentlemen, curiously enough, if you take a look in the Oxford Dictionary, in the entry related specifically to covert coat (a short overcoat used in Britain for hunting or sports), the pronunciation is presented as /ˈkʌvət/. No R sound but a final T. Other coverts in the dictionary have an R pronunciation included, but not our beloved OC.
And Julian thought it was a dumb question......

[couch]

I always thought Covert came from the French couvert....also no "t" pronounced.

Cheers

Apparently if you go back far enough in the etymology you're right, but then if you go back even farther you get to Latin:

Pronunciation: /ˈkʌvət/
Forms: Forms ME–16 couert, ME Sc. cowert, ME coouert, coovert, cowart, ME–15 couerte, ME– covert.
Etymology: < French couvert, < couvert , past participle of couvrir to cover: see covert adj.

The chain of sense appears (via the OED) to be (for the noun form) something that covers or gives shelter--thus a thicket or covert that shelters game animals, thus a coat used originally by gamekeepers working in the field (I remember reading somewhere that the railroad stitching was designed to prevent raveling if the sleeves and skirt hems were torn by thorns and gorse, etc.--so not originally a gentleman's garment, but adopted by the country set later). I note that the "thicket" sense was in use in England in Latin in the 12th century (coopertum) and in English by Henry Tudor's time:

3. A place which gives shelter to wild animals or game; esp. a thicket; = cover n.1 4a.
[1199 Rot. Chartarum 21 Sex acras terræ in foresta nostra..juxta coopertum bosci.]
1494 Act 11 Hen. VII c. 17 It is ordained..that no Man..drive them out of their Coverts.
1551 T. Wilson Rule of Reason sig. Ivv, Couertes or boroughes, wherein..he maie fynde game at pleasure.
1594 M. Drayton Matilda sig. E4, Like a Roe..to the couert doth himselfe betake.
1751 Johnson Rambler No. 141. ⁋10 Sportsmen who boast of killing the foxes which they lodge in the covert.
1801 J. Strutt Glig-gamena Angel-ðeod i. i. 2 Wolves..infested the woods and coverts.
1863 F. A. Kemble Jrnl. Resid. Georgian Plantation 19 The spiked palmetto forms an impenetrable covert.
1871 R. Ellis tr. Catullus Poems lxiii. 72 Am I to..Be with hind that haunts the covert?
1641 Milton Of Prelatical Episc. 19 Tradition..that wild, and overgrowne Covert of antiquity.
1692 J. Ray Wisdom of God (ed. 2) ii. 110 The Hedge-hog..within his Covert or Thicket of Prickles.

And for cloth/coats by the 1890s:

Covert cloth n. = covert coating n.
1895 Army & Navy Co-op. Soc. List, Autumn & Winter Designs (caption) Walking Gown..in Melton and Covert Cloths... Covert Cloth Gown.
1921 Daily Colonist (Victoria, Brit. Columbia) 6 Apr. 7/1 (advt.) Children's Covert Cloth Reefers. Lightweight serviceable Reefer Coats for children.
1968 J. Ironside Fashion Alphabet 222 The best covert cloth is made from wool... Covert is also now made of rayon, cotton and synthetics.

Covert coat n. a short light overcoat worn while shooting, riding, etc., and as a dust-coat.
a1893 Mod. Advt., Waterproof Venetian covert coats.
1894 Country Gentlemen's Catal. 168/2 Special covert coat materials.
1899 E. W. Hornung Amateur Cracksman 16 A covert coat over his blazer.
1930 W. S. Maugham Cakes & Ale v. 74 A fawn-coloured covert-coat with large buttons.
1960 ‘R. East’ Kingston Black viii. 77 Marty appeared in his covert coat.

Covert coating n. material, usually waterproof, for covert coats.
1900 ‘Major of Today’ Clothes & Man ii. 61 A good useful riding or driving coat is made of a heavy covert coating material.
1906 Daily Chron. 27 Aug. 8/5 A charming coat..made in biscuit-coloured covert-coating.
1959 Chambers's Encycl. XIV. 662/2 Covert coating, medium-weight fabric with a twill effect on the surface.

As for pronunciation, the OED (at least the online one) only gives the one phonetic spelling for all the noun forms. I've always heard it said with the T pronounced in contexts outside the sartorial (as in "the fox hid in the covert") though usually in a southern U.S. context. I defer to Russell, however, on UK sporting usage, and it seems perfectly plausible to me that country/sporting usage and accent might have diverged and would have been transmitted to the tailor's and clothmaker's practice by late Victorian times. I'm not bothered by OED showing the schwa sound without an explicit R as Received Pronunciation--many English accents have vestigial to nonexistent terminal or near-terminal R's. If you listen to recordings of the quality from before the Second World War you can hear cut-glass that would sound parodic today. Edward Fox does a very good one for his Edwardian roles, as in the film "The Shooting Party."

Apologies for any pedantry above but I find these language questions fascinating.

[Luca]

Yes, the phonetic guidance on dictionaries is not always very good. I take it, then, that OED has it a "coveht", with the flat, non-rolled 'r' of received prononunciation. Hmmm.

[Trimmer]

It's quite hard to follow a 't' sound with a 'c' sound. Try saying 'covert coat' (with a 't') quickly.

[couch]

You may well have something there, in terms of the evolution of pronunciation, though it wouldn't apply if used in the sense of "the line of beaters worked its way through the covert." But your observation may indeed explain how we say 'Cholmondeley' and 'Worcestershire.'

[Julian]

Thanks everyone. I hadn't realised it would be such a nuanced discussion. It's been most enlightening.

With all this uncertainty around the pronunciation of the final "t" maybe it's best if I go for a Chesterfiel coat instead .

- Julian

[Luca]

It has been argued before that British pronounciation is largely designed to thoroughly befuddle and gently mock "outsiders".

In reality, linguists and philologists, as I udnerstand it, seem to think that the 'organic' and 'anarchic' nature of linguistic development in Britain (and other English-speaking countries) make it particularly succeptible to unpredictable trends in pronounciation and usage.

If you were a financial analyst, think of English as a high-vol language, with all the quirks and phonetic "leptokurtosis" that implies.