Advice for my "post-LL" MTM suit

[Luca]

I've had a few MtM garments made up in the past but that was before I stumbled onto the amazing source of information that is London lounge. Since I am about to embark on a new suit (first appointment next week), I'd like to shamelessly dip into the collective unconscious of LL for advice.

I am planning a single-breasted, two-button suit that will be mostly used in business settings.
The fabric I've picked out is a 9 oz. Holland & Sherry navy-blue birdseye.
My thinking so far is as follows:

* I like the idea of button placement that is not too high but at the same time I don’t want a long "skirt". Is there some rule as to where the buttons should fall, relative to the torso? I'm thinking the top button about 8 cm above the navel and the lower button about 5 cm below?

* Many posters have pointed out that the 'cut-away' below the bottom button can be more or less slanted; anyone has any picture suggestions for that?
* I'd like the armhole not too tight, just in terms of comfort and excessive perspiration during travel: is there a standard way to communicate a non-sack-like but also not too tight armhole?
* I'm not a big fan of heavy shoulder padding and my natural shoulders are fairly straight and broad.
* I think I'll go with two slant pockets and avoid the external "ticket" pocket.
* I find functioning cuffs, though I always keep them buttoned, "wear" more naturally.
* 'natural' rise for the trousers (belt at the bellybutton).
* I'm going for a single pleat front but with a tapering, quite slim leg.
* No strong opinion on trouser pockets but I never, ever place anything in back pockets.
* Is it a bad thing if I don't like side-adjusters?
* standard turn-up cuffs -- I've gone off plain cuffs in suit trousers.
* My biggest dilemma so far is with the bottom of the jacket. Here in Britain anything but double side vents is seen as sacrilegious. I happen to think that single back vent from many angels is actually more elegant, though. Lastly, a recent post showed a very nice, vent-less fit. Aaargh.



Any and all advice/observations are welcome.

[Concordia]

If you're doing MTM and not bespoke, many of these questions you raise will have been settled for you.

As for the rest, it's really just a matter of taste. I am not a fan of slanted pockets, but you might be slimmer than I am. No harm in avoiding side adjusters if you're going for braces or belt loops. Center vents are very American-looking, but if they work for you then go for it.

[BAO]

If you're doing MTM and not bespoke, many of these questions you raise will have been settled for you.

As for the rest, it's really just a matter of taste. I am not a fan of slanted pockets, but you might be slimmer than I am. No harm in avoiding side adjusters if you're going for braces or belt loops. Center vents are very American-looking, but if they work for you then go for it.

Can you explain please? I would have thought slanted pockets to have a slimming effect rather than horizontal ones with flaps...?

[couch]

* I like the idea of button placement that is not too high but at the same time I don’t want a long "skirt". Is there some rule as to where the buttons should fall, relative to the torso? I'm thinking the top button about 8 cm above the navel and the lower button about 5 cm below?

The answer to this depends in part on which of the two "models" of two-button jacket you're selecting. The most common one (and the one I think most versatile and least unusual in a business setting) will have the top button at the "button point," or roughly the same as where the middle button on a three-button jacket or the button on a SB dinner jacket would fall. This is usually somewhere at or very slightly above the natural waist (so for most people at or only slightly above the navel). This is the point from which the lapel V will open, so that more shirt is visible (compared to a 3-button) and so the lapel line more strongly emphasizes the masculine V from narrow waist to wide shoulders. Some version of this has been traditional for "American" cut suits (apart from the Ivy style 3-roll-2) since JFK. Fashions cause the lapel width to increase or decrease, and during the unfortunate Armani era the button moved down a bit along with the notches, but the basic idea is the same: the button point anchors the center of the jacket at the torso's natural center point. From there the lapel and quarters can open according to what's flattering without disturbing the equilibrium of the line. For men who want to increase the apparent length of their legs, the button point can be adjusted upward an inch or so, but not much more. Here's Anthony Sinclair's fitting with the button point marked by basting (the horizontal line under the overlap) and chalk (faintly on the overlap inside the basted "box") on Sean Connery:



The other "model," of which there have been a few successful examples posted by members, is exemplified by the Duke of Windsor's tweed suit frequently cited here:



and here is Costi's interpretation:



This "model" has two buttons spaced roughly equally above and below the "button point" or natural waist. Although I've seen (but can't find) pictures of Windsor with that suit and others of the same "model" with both buttons buttoned, you can deduce that in that configuration it would lead to a fairly closed effect, and unless perfectly tailored risks looking tight across the middle. If only one button is to be buttoned, it has to be the lower, leading to Costi's charmingly degagé and casual presentation. By its nature this is likely to cause some rippling from the button when buttoned this way, and while it lengthens and opens the lapel line, it makes the skirt look very short in comparison to the chest and risks making the legs look short by lowering the optical center of the suit. If not carefully done and worn by a fairly slim man, the effect can be a bit saggy, and because the lower button is to be buttoned it leaves less room for a graceful opening of the quarters. It's less common to see this "model" in ready made jackets, though I have one inexpensive Italian sport jacket (with peak lapels!) in this style that I wear very occasionally. So my point is that while its relative uncommonness makes it attractive for bespoke lovers with tailors who know them well enough to handle the challenges I've indicated (as Costi's clearly has), it's a fairly risky venture for MTM or RTW to get the proportions right. And the relaxed air lent by buttoning only the bottom button may not comport well with a navy worsted bird's-eye or some business settings, while buttoning both may tend to make you look a bit of a stuffed shirt if the proportions and fit are not precisely calibrated for your particular figuration. I've gone on about this because from the tentative button positions you've floated, it sounds as if you may be considering this style. If so, I'd urge you to see if you can find a RTW version somewhere and try it on to get a sense of the effects before embarking on an MTM order.

Good luck!

[C.Lee]

... Although I've seen (but can't find) pictures of Windsor with that suit and others of the same "model" with both buttons buttoned,...

[Luca]

Fascinating points on the two-button alternatives. It looks/sounds as if, on a businessy MtM, the first (natural button point) version might be more straightforward but I will certainly keep the second alternative in mind if and when I get a tweed jacket made up as it looks like an elegant compromise between a "typical" 2-button and the 3-button.

[internationalist]

and here is Costi's interpretation:

Costi in person or only his interpretation?

[couch]

His interpretation of this style of jacket. In person.

[internationalist]

His interpretation of this style of jacket. In person.

:high five smiley:

[Luca]

Just a little update, if anyone's interested. I had a nice meeting/measurement for the suit.
As all the informed posters know and some pointed out, there is limited leeway with MTM but the choice of details is not to be sneezed at. What's more, I found that where there was choice the guidance was "gentle" and respectful of my requirements. In the end I went for a double vent, as it is a 'City' suit, but the jacket will be 1/2 inch shorter than the 'regular' drop for that chest size (no "bum-freezer" nut not oto frock-like either). The trousers will be a bit more pegged than the standard "house" width. Should be ready in 6-8 wks. Best of all, the trousers have a 'full' rise unlike 90% of the RTW stuff out there now.

[Luca]

Would these jackets be an example of the higher-buttoning padock-style coats mentioned above?

[couch]

The lighting's a bit challenging, but for most I would say not. They appear to be "standard" two-button models with a fairly high waist. The button point on all of them appears to be at or near the narrowest point of the jacket (look at the rear edge) that defines the waist. If you look at Windsor's flying suit (thanks, C. Lee) you can see that the top button is several inches above the jacket waist, and the lower one not far below it. This is what allows both to be buttoned without restricting movement in the hips. The checked jackets in your photo do not look to me like their lower buttons could be comfortably buttoned.

[Luca]

Ok, I completely get it now. Bottom button not far from jacket 'waist'. Check.
As I say, might be veeery itneresting if I ever graduate from MtM to bespoke. One of the issues, for me, is that even RTW fits me rather well, typcally, (very 'average' body shape, i guess) so the added expense / involvement of despoke over MtM is a bit of a hurdle.

[Concordia]

Would these jackets be an example of the higher-buttoning padock-style coats mentioned above?

Where did you shoot these?

[Luca]

Where did you shoot these?

I didn't. It's from an internet blog.