Barristers of bespoke

[alden]

I know we have a few legions of great legal minds from the UK on the LL. So let me run this idea by you.

A lot of first time bespeakers are being taken advantage of by some pretty nifty tactics by Savile Row tailors...not doing fittings, misrepresenting their services, all of which would be fine, if they had not taken a deposit in exchange for empty promises.

Would it be possible for us to draft a short document that clients could offer for signature by these rogue firms when they hand over their hard earned cash deposits to the effect that a contract has been established and non performance by the firm would result in the client recuperating the deposit in full. Or something to that effect? It irks me that too many men have complained about these kinds of things and more and more of them. They leave their money and have nothing but air in exchange..as in "If you've got it in writing, you've got a prayer. If you've got nothing but words, you've got nothing but air!"

Humor me on this one...!

Cheers

[Tutumulut]

Would something along the lines of

"If you don't make it completely to my liking, I will send my jobless, criminal brother to sort you out. Date. Signature."

fit the bill?

[alden]

"If you don't make it completely to my liking, I will send my jobless, criminal brother to sort you out. Date. Signature."

I like it. It's quick and efficient. Gives employment to the jobless. And incurs fewer legal bills.

It is sad. It used to be that words and a handshake were good enough in a "gentleman's" arena like SR. Now we do need written contracts as the gentile veneer warps away and the very ordinary and common is revealed.

Any other good ideas?

[BAO]

I would sugegst that we seek to draw up a Statement of Work. This is a common approach that covers project work where there are some unknowns at the start of the project but the framework of the deliverable and the nature of the service are known. This is used extensively in IT projects between buyer and vendor/consultancies.

The Statement of Work should include:

1. The nature of service provided - custom tailoring and any other qualifying factors (no-outsourcing to China, no sub-contracting to unknown or undeclared parties). The minimum number of fittings, the type of fittings, the order and timeline of the fittings and the degree of change acceptable (i.e. you can't go from wanting SB and then change to DB in the final fitting...).
2. The nature of products and materials used - the cloth, lining etc
3. Critical design features - DB, SB, unpadded shoulders etc
4. A mutually agreed upon definition of success (this is to protect both customer and tailor).

The salient point is this, if the document is vague and doesn't clearly define 'success' then it leaves the tailor at the mercy of the client and would probably deter even honest and talented tailors from engaging with that client.

Another issue to consider is that if the tailor did entertain such a document it would in effect open him up to potentially having a multitude of legal exposures to manage which in itself, from a 'risk management' perspective, would not be sensible to take on.

Perhaps, then, this should be a supplier led initiative rather than demand led. If an honest tailor had a standard form that he owned and in that form he could fill out the details of the service and product description with a caveat of 'specs subject to change based on client requests and other discoveries during fittings' and if the client were able to sign off against the changes then this would actually serve as a positive service differentiator for that tailor.

Also what customers might want to consider is the process of confirming their expectations in an email with a request for confirmation of receipt of email from the tailor. It doesn't have to be written in legal jargon just something along the lines of 'Dear Bob, just to confirm my intented order with you that it'll be a SB sports jacket in LL Cloth #1234 with the following design features...." This gives you the paper trail and if it all goes wrong you have recourse for Small Claims Court which is the most cost effective and fair means of redress in my experience.

Sory for the long post, didn't have time to be concise!

[Mark Seitelman]

Some practical advice from a USA lawyer:

A contract is not worth the paper it is printed on if the debtor has to be dragged to court to pay damages. In other words, if the customer has to sue, then the customer is the loser in lost time, money, etc. Often all that the customer has to show is a botched suit.

Often, the dishonest merchant will go out of business, file for bankruptcy, or be judgment-proof. Therefore, a small claims judgment may prove to be worthless. On a side note, I have a client who has a $2,000 judgment against a "celebrity" beautician which appears to be worthless because we cannot track-down a bank account for the Marshall.

The cheapest advice is to patronize tailors/clothiers with good reputations, especially those recommended by friends and family. They have pre-screened the tailor for you.

Honest tailors and clothiers will admit mistakes. The will either remake the clothes, offer a refund, or offer a good discount. When I have had a problem, I never walked away unhappy.

Also, good quality clothing does not come cheap. If you find a bargain tailor (e.g., an apprentice tailor doing "work on the side"), be aware of the risks of non-delivery, late delivery, poor workmanship, etc. Often, you will have no recourse.

Incidentally, I have never received nor requested a work order. However, I cannot see an honest tailor objecting to a carbon copy of the order with the agreed price along with the receipt for the deposit.

Good luck.

[Melcombe]

Some practical advice from a USA lawyer:

A contract is not worth the paper it is printed on if the debtor has to be dragged to court to pay damages. In other words, if the customer has to sue, then the customer is the loser in lost time, money, etc. Often all that the customer has to show is a botched suit.

Often, the dishonest merchant will go out of business, file for bankruptcy, or be judgment-proof. Therefore, a small claims judgment may prove to be worthless. On a side note, I have a client who has a $2,000 judgment against a "celebrity" beautician which appears to be worthless because we cannot track-down a bank account for the Marshall.

The cheapest advice is to patronize tailors/clothiers with good reputations, especially those recommended by friends and family. They have pre-screened the tailor for you.

Honest tailors and clothiers will admit mistakes. The will either remake the clothes, offer a refund, or offer a good discount. When I have had a problem, I never walked away unhappy.

Also, good quality clothing does not come cheap. If you find a bargain tailor (e.g., an apprentice tailor doing "work on the side"), be aware of the risks of non-delivery, late delivery, poor workmanship, etc. Often, you will have no recourse.

Incidentally, I have never received nor requested a work order. However, I cannot see an honest tailor objecting to a carbon copy of the order with the agreed price along with the receipt for the deposit.

Good luck.

All of this ^^^

Incidentally, under English law, consumers have considerable protection against unfair trading terms and - helpfully - terms implied by law into consumer transactions as to quality of goods, services and delivery. If, however, you find yourself in dispute then even a 'good' outcome will be at the cost of plenty of anguish - and (heaven forbid) the scale of lawyers' fees might make SR suits look cheap.

To avoid disappointment, it must be a priority to ensure that there is clear communication between you and your tailor - or more particularly with his firm, if he / she is not a one-man-band.

It's one thing to turn up with a fairly clear idea of what you want, but half the enjoyment is being steered away from the sartorial shoals by the sound advice of your (hopefully, increasingly trusted) tailor. Eye contact is a good start when discussing matters - saying clearly what you want is just easier face-to-face than when your tailor is bent double behind you. If you are in a conversation that is moving from notions of gold lame lapel facings to reverse-slant pockets via quadruple trouser pleats, you will appreciate that there is huge scope for 'confirmed' instructions to slip down the gaps between floorboards.

May I also suggest that if there is the slightest scope for misunderstanding, then you should follow each visit with a concise, polite and enthusiastic note (on decent paper, in clear handwriting or typed) saying how much you are looking forward to the finished article and confirming the detail of what you agreed - and, importantly, inviting them to call you directly if what you have set out doesn't sit squarely with their understanding of your commission.

Take a copy of the note to the next fitting; if anything is astray, politely mention that you'd covered it in your note and (very politely) point to where you say it. In such a case you will very quickly be able to gauge whether you will want to stick with said tailor : they will either harrumph and bluff (bad) or immediately undertake to rectify the point without further ado (good).

I have regularly provided a summary for my tailor because at his age, he has enough to worry about without submitting to a memory test. On one of the few occasions when I didn't, I ended up with a ventless coat instead of the single vent I had intended to ask for. He put it right straight away and in a manner that was so professional, I could not imagine I would go elsewhere for as long as he remains in business.

I don't believe more detailed 'terms of business' would necessarily help. If you do find yourself in dispute with a SR tailor, I would reasonably hope that his concern for his good name would trump any inconvenience of putting matters right for the customer : the advent of (international) online discussion of SR tailors' relative merits should make that point very clear.

Regards

David

[C.Lee]

...A lot of first time bespeakers are being taken advantage of by some pretty nifty tactics by Savile Row tailors...not doing fittings, misrepresenting their services, all of which would be fine, if they had not taken a deposit in exchange for empty promises...

With this deposit I thee wed. An opportunity for a prenup I suppose.

Really, what can one expect if it is a David and Goliath union? A new customer with a simple commission at a large firm is in a prone position. Not having been referred and likely contributing little business, there is no incentive for a large firm to tailor their service to the humble individual. Moreover, there is little opportunity for the individual's charm to show through as the number of fittings - and thus face time - is limited. There will be trust when there is face time and a balance of power.

I feel the best results are achieved where there is a good match between customer and tailor, and both sides bring something to the table. It's clear what Goliath has to offer, but what about David? Better to court an equal.

[Melcombe]

...A lot of first time bespeakers are being taken advantage of by some pretty nifty tactics by Savile Row tailors...not doing fittings, misrepresenting their services, all of which would be fine, if they had not taken a deposit in exchange for empty promises...

With this deposit I thee wed. An opportunity for a prenup I suppose.

Really, what can one expect if it is a David and Goliath union? A new customer with a simple commission at a large firm is in a prone position. Not having been referred and likely contributing little business, there is no incentive for a large firm to tailor their service to the humble individual. Moreover, there is little opportunity for the individual's charm to show through as the number of fittings - and thus face time - is limited. There will be trust when there is face time and a balance of power.

I feel the best results are achieved where there is a good match between customer and tailor, and both sides bring something to the table. It's clear what Goliath has to offer, but what about David? Better to court an equal.

The idea of contract law is to place David & Goliath on an equal footing. Compared to some jurisdictions, judgments against debtors in England are fairly straightforward to enforce except where the debtor is insolvent.

Another point that might just come to someone's rescue is the Consumer Credit Act 1974, s.75. A fun explanation found here http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shoppi ... -purchases. The lesson being that if you are wary of what might go wrong, pay your SR tailor using a credit card regulated by English Law. In the extreme, if things get nasty, you are likely to get prompter satisfaction from your CC company.

Aside from contemplating the joys of civil litigation (which is, IMHO, as much fun as can be had fully clothed...provided someone else is paying) there is considerable advantage to just going into these matters, as with any commercial relationship, with one's eyes wide open. If you are unsure - make sure : if your counterpart isn't happy explaining what is on offer for the money in terms of fittings and production, that is a universally bad sign. It's not 'ungentlemanly' to discuss such detail politely.

[alden]

Aside from contemplating the joys of civil litigation (which is, IMHO, as much fun as can be had fully clothed...provided someone else is paying) there is considerable advantage to just going into these matters, as with any commercial relationship, with one's eyes wide open. If you are unsure - make sure : if your counterpart isn't happy explaining what is on offer for the money in terms of fittings and production, that is a universally bad sign. It's not 'ungentlemanly' to discuss such detail politely.

Ha ha, spoken like a true litigator. Excellent advice.

Cheers

[agjiffy]

I think the simplest solution is to use a charge card and speak with your charge card company about what you are buying and the circumstances and time frame in which you can make a dispute. Easier to work through your credit card company than with a merchant who has provided disappointing service.

[BirdofSydney]

A superb idea, Michael, but the implementation is the challenge.

I can see SR tailors being somewhat taken aback at the request to sign, and the more reputable he is, the more likely he is to take umbrage! It is ironic that this is the way of things, but it is human nature. The rogues, on the other hand, will sign readily but won't comply until the bailiff is at the door!

Perhaps some LL member in practice in London could appear for unlucky bespeakers, levying some lengths of cloth in distress as payment for his services!

[hectorm]

I think the simplest solution is to use a charge card.

Sounds simple but it has a hefty cost of several hundred pounds. Most SR houses that I know offer a substantial discount for paying cash or up front. In the case of Henry Poole, for instance, it has been traditionally 15%.

[couch]

Is that still true at Poole? It was true for advance payment the first few years I worked with them, but I believe they no longer offer a discount for advance payment (at least for small orders and/or customer's own cloth)--that's what Simon told me on my two most recent commissions, which were placed a couple of years ago now. He said they couldn't afford to continue the practice, which suggests that they were not having significant issues with accounts receivable. I'm sure the origin of the cash discount was to discourage the time-honored practice among sporting gentlemen of never paying one's tailor until one's estate was settled. Now that most people pay with credit cards (or presumably for certain clients, the sweep account of the sovereign wealth fund), cash flow is probably much more regular and the firms can charge prices that more closely reflect actual costs and overhead. I haven't checked in the last year or so, but Poole used to be at or slightly below the middle of the SR range for prices, with a significant discount for CMT, so they represented, at least for clients who encouraged their best service, very good value in relative terms. I hope that's still true. But if I'm correct that the advance-payment discount is no longer offered there or at the other large houses, then the credit-card consumer protections would still be relevant (though one hopes rarely needed).

[hectorm]

Is that still true at Poole? It was true for advance payment the first few years I worked with them, but I believe they no longer offer a discount for advance payment

Thank you, couch, for waking me up to the reality of SR in the XXI century. My most recent commission at Poole took place in 1996. Just imagine. The discount for cash up-front was customary then around all the SR houses. I´m sure Poole´s was 15%. Huntsman´s discount was only 10% if I remember well.
I´m not sure what the younger Mr. Cundey means when he says they can´t "afford" this kind of discount. Maybe "afford" is a polite way of saying "not very interested" since money up-front doesn´t make the financial difference that it used to.
You are right when you imply that this practice was in place to compensate for "erratic" client behavior when it came to settling their bills. But I believe that the present fading out of this discount has more to do with instant electronic transfers and low interest rates than with increased client honesty. So, agreed, without this discount there is low cost and some protection in using one´s credit card. And there´s always the FF miles

[Frederic Leighton]

To dress with economy you must adopt the ready money system. If you run a tailor's bill the thing cannot be done. Your credit tailor not only sticks it on in price, but is often careless about fit and make-up, especially if you are so deep on his books that he guesses you are not in a position to pay him off and go elsewhere. Again, the haute voleé of tailors cares little for your custom unless your yearly account is considerable; and although the most aristocratic snip is not above making you a single coat, the same attention is not bestowed on it as if you gave an extensive order. Even from the work-rooms of Burlington, Albany & Co. I have seen many solitary coats turned out that would scarcely have passed muster in a ready-made Mosaic clothes-shop. [...]
The question may, perhaps, now be asked by the reader, "If I am not to patronize Messrs. Burlington, Albany & Co., or an artiste of similar calibre, to what tailor shall I go?" Well, it is not my province to recommend any particular tailor or tailors; you pay your money and take your choice; but without mentioning names, there are hundreds of excellent economical tailors in London who turn out clothes equal in style and cut to the above eminent firm at prices from 35 to 40 per cent. lower, so cannot afford to give credit for longer than three months. To this class I should go. They may be found in quiet streets off the most fashionable resorts, and invariably have cutters or foremen to the dii majores of the sartorial art. As a rule, they make no show, nor exhibit anything in their windows. A brass plate on door, or blind in front, tells their trade. [...]

From The Gentleman's Art of Dressing with Economy, by A Lounger at the Clubs. London, 1876.