Cifonelli RTW and MTM

[Garbo]

Hello,

I just bought a Cifonelli suit from the RTW line. The alterations were marked by M. Massimo Cifonelli (very impressive by the way, i never saw a chalk used so fast) and I'm waiting for the first fitting (yes they have one fitting even for RTW)

I was wondering if any of you have bought a Cifonelli RTW suit or MTM because i consider buying a MTM suit in winter and was wondering if it was a real step-up (in quality, in price i'm sure of it ) ?

Thanks for your help

best regards

Gregory

[Garbo]

1 week, 79 views and no answer ?
Not enough french members on this forum


Gregory

[alden]

I would suggest you get on Eurostar and go to one of the many off Row tailors and have a full bespoke suit made for what Cifonelli MTM costs. Or there are many other "decent" MTM makers in Paris or go to Rouen and see Andre Marcel or ask Di Fiore nicely for a nice suit.

Cheers

Michael

[Garbo]

Thank you Michael for your answer
I was hesitating indeed between a bespoke suit from the english cut and a MTM from Cifonelli but prices are not exactly the same 2800 euros (2200 euros during sales) for Cifonelli and 2495 pounds without Taxes (meaning around 3478 euros with taxes) for the english cut .
It's more than 50% expensive and I thought it would be a good idea to start with a MTM suit and after that consider a bespoke suit.
But maybe, you could advise me a less expensive off row tailor ?
By the way, I followed your advice and bought two bespoke shirt at Lucca (in Paris) before considering buying a MTM pr bespoke suit.

best regards
Gregory

[davidhuh]

Dear Gregory,

Michael has already mentioned some names. I would recommend that you take your time (which may help you to saving a few more euros), spend a few for Eurostar and see some tailors. Go and talk to them, and see what they would do for you. Some slightly off Row names with a good reputation:
- Benson & Clegg
- Karl Matthews
- Thomas Mahon
- Steed
- Steve Hitchcock
- Meyer and Mortimer
- Byrne & Burge

Talk to them, and see with whom you feel most comfortable with. Start with a boring standard suit, grey or blue worsted but in a very good quality.

If you are ready to spend 2'200-2'800 EUR, you should find bespoke at the same level or just slightly above. And if you are lucky, you shall wear it for twenty or more years

Cheers, David

[Garbo]

Dear David,

Thank you also for your answer.
I know what names Michael generally recommend (cf LL certified artisan list for instance) but I was wondering about affordable name because Thomas Mahon (aka english cut), steed and steven Hitchcok are way above 3000 euros with taxes (between 3200 and 3500 ) and i was ready to pay around 2200 euros (i can wait for the sales at Cifonelli...) which is not quite the same.
Moreover, if you add at least 3 return tickets to go to london , this solution will even be 300 euros more expensive.
Just to be clear, I"m not saying I will never have a bespoke suit (I have already bought some cloth from the LL cloth club) nor that MTM and bespoke are on the same level.

But at the moment , i was wondering between the difference between a 1300 euros RTW and 2200 euros MTM at Cifonelli (sales prices) and i'm sure you will all agree it's not exactly the same ballpark than a 3500+ euros (fare included) bespoke suit.

Best regards

Gregory

PS : i'm not familiar with the pricing of the other tailor you named, are they less expensive than Mahon, Steed or Hitchcok

[davidhuh]

Dear Gregory,

there are two ways to respond you
a) straight forward & direct
b) subtle & perhaps more useful

Straight forward and direct, I would tell you that the way you come across counting your euros tells me you cannot afford it and you should stay out until you do. But I told you not to rush things, you already bought some LL cloth and I prefer being nice to you.

Dear David,

because Thomas Mahon (aka english cut), steed and steven Hitchcok are way above 3000 euros with taxes (between 3200 and 3500 ) and i was ready to pay around 2200 euros (i can wait for the sales at Cifonelli...) which is not quite the same.
Moreover, if you add at least 3 return tickets to go to london , this solution will even be 300 euros more expensive

Honestly, spending 2'200 on MTM is wasting your money. You get very reasonable MTM for half the price.

The tailors I mentioned are all within a similar price range (20-30% difference ca). As you already bought LL cloth, I think you need to start somewhere with a tailor. Investing on a trip to London, meeting potential tailors is money well invested my friend. Choose your tailor as carefully as your bride .

Take appointments, so you are sure they have time for you. Don't decide on the spot, but return. All this gives you time to save more money. And you will not regret having met these craftsmen, you learn a lot when talking to them. This kind of experience will save you money in the long run.

If money is still an issue, get a blue blazer done. You can wear it with RTW trousers - chinos, flannels - you already have, but you get the most versatile bespoke coat for your wardrobe, plus you collect experience as a bespeaker.

But at the moment , i was wondering between the difference between a 1300 euros RTW and 2200 euros MTM at Cifonelli (sales prices) and i'm sure you will all agree it's not exactly the same ballpark than a 3500+ euros (fare included) bespoke suit.

Gregory, spending 1300 EUR for RTW or 2200 for MTM is wasting your money. Better have one suit less.

Cheers, David

[alden]

Hi Gregory

Both Steed and Josh Byrne visit Paris. You might want to see them on their next stop over. Steed has an MTM product you might want to look at, but I have to agree that you will do best to have fewer but better articles of clothing. I know that in the early stages of developing a wardrobe, when you need a few staple suits for work, bespoke seems like an arduous and costly alternative. But with some good planning and self restraint you can piece together the basics in a few years.

I have to agree with David that the prices you are quoting for RTW and MTM seem exorbitant for what you are getting in return. For those prices you could fly to Italy and have clothes made. In any case, there are many less expensive alternatives. There is a Spanish tailor who works in the 7th named Miguel. Let me see if I can dig out his contact details.

Cheers

[Garbo]

Dear David,
I'm afraid that your answer is not as subtle as you intended it to be but i thank you again for all your advices.
It's indeed true that I can't afford now a bespoke suit ( well, i do have the money but i'm not feeling totally ready to spend it all on one suit), maybe in one year or two.

I tend to agree with you that 2200 euros for a MTM suit is too much and it was to be sure that I asked all these questions.

However, 1300 euros for a RTW doesn't seem to much to me considering the prices of other brands :
- Kiton, and Brioni cost a lot more
- Canali, Corneliani and smalto cost around the same
- Boss, Boggi and Lacroix are less expensive but the cloth, and the cut are less good (Boggi is the best of these tree but doesnt fit me...)
But maybe , you will be kind enough to give me some advices on RTW suits ?

I know that for the same price I could have a good bespoke suit in HK but It's pretty far . I could order two or three suits at the same time to make the trip worth it but considering my (little) experience with bespoke shirt , I think it's best to order one piece after another.

And now , to talk about the core of your answer (and of this forum ), I will do as you say to select my future bespoke tailor and the blazer is a very good idea. I intended to go with Thomas Mahon because of his good reputation and background but it will be indeed best to met some others tailors first to be sure.


Dear Micheal,

I really appreciate that you took some time to answer me again. I will try to meet Steed in Paris (probably next year when I will feel more ready).
To be more precise, I already have some suits (7 ) but since half of them are worn-off (i used to have nine but two of them met their end) , I was wondering how to replace them the best way ( meaning how to upgrade with keeping a good ratio quality/price)
I thought Cifonelli RTW and or MTM was a good answer, but everybody seems to agree it's not
I'm really open to have some specifics about less expensive ways (Italy is noted) and it would be wonderful if you can find the contact details of the spanish taylor you mentionned

Thank again to both of you

Best regards

Gregory

[alden]

Gregory

Miguel used to work downstairs at Pape on the Avenue Rapp.

http://www.boutique-pape.com/

I don't know if he is still there. Drop by and take a look.

Forget about the big name fashion brands of RTW clothes. They are a colossal waste. You can find RTW clothes at much more reasonable prices and quality levels. Too bad Old England vanished. That was the best shop for men in town.

Paris is a tough place for men's clothing these days. There are not many substantive solutions available. Many of the great tailors have retired or passed away. And those very few who remain charge a real premium for their services. Makes sense, its the law of supply and demand.

There are a lot of shoddy merchandisers masquerading as bespoke in Paris. It's a real pity. So beware.

On the bright side of things, you have one of the very best traditional bespoke shirtmakers in the world in Mary Frittolini and a great hatmaker in Pauline Brosset. Could be worse I suppose.

Cheers

Cheers

[davidhuh]

Dear Gregory,

please see below.

Dear David,
I'm afraid that your answer is not as subtle as you intended

Please accept my apologies. Online communication can be challenging - you did not see me laughing when I was writing. Some things are easier to say face to face.

It's indeed true that I can't afford now a bespoke suit ( well, i do have the money but i'm not feeling totally ready to spend it all on one suit), maybe in one year or two.

Well possible and it makes sense. This is why I recommended that you go and meet potential tailors - and perhaps you start with a blazer; this is where a tailor is making the biggest difference. If you go bespoke, you are entering a different world.

Much more important than 200 euros more or less is the fact that you get along with your tailor, and that he is doing what is right for you. Online searches are useful, but you should make an informed decision after meeting several craftsmen. In that sense, making a trip to London is not money spent, but an investment.

I'm still doing this today. When I see a tailor somewhere (not only in London), I enter, say hello and have a chat when I have time. You learn a lot this way

However, 1300 euros for a RTW doesn't seem to much to me considering the prices of other brands :
- Kiton, and Brioni cost a lot more
- Canali, Corneliani and smalto cost around the same
- Boss, Boggi and Lacroix are less expensive but the cloth, and the cut are less good (Boggi is the best of these tree but doesnt fit me...)

I see your thinking driven by luxury brand marketing - which is understandable. Imagine the marketing budgets poor customers are financing

But maybe , you will be kind enough to give me some advices on RTW suits ?

I don't know how you are built, so take this with a grain of salt. If you need a quick fix at a good quality/price ratio, go to Suit Supply. Don't order online, but go to Brussels or London (their London shop is accross Gieves & Hawkes - combine it with your visit to the Row?).

Make sure the shoulders fit, and have alterations done onsite or by an alterations tailor in Paris. Recently, a friend of mine who is a banker required something quickly, so I took him to the shop in London. He was very happy with the result. Their most expensive suits are half the price you mentioned, and the quality is at least equal if not better.

I know that for the same price I could have a good bespoke suit in HK but It's pretty far . I could order two or three suits at the same time to make the trip worth it but considering my (little) experience with bespoke shirt , I think it's best to order one piece after another.

If you are in Hong Kong every 3 months, fine. Your tailor should ideally be in your city, or in a city you can easily and regularly visit without too much hassle. Or third best option, you have one coming to Paris regularly. And right: do not rush things, but make a first, then a second suit, then a third one with the same tailor. Done that, you may order two or more at once..

And now , to talk about the core of your answer (and of this forum ), I will do as you say to select my future bespoke tailor and the blazer is a very good idea. I intended to go with Thomas Mahon because of his good reputation and background but it will be indeed best to met some others tailors first to be sure.

Mr Mahon is a very good tailor, I can personally recommend him. I don't know if he is taking new customers. But meet him and other tailors before deciding . What works for me may not work for somebody else...

Cheers, David

[Kayak81]

Gregory,

If you already have some LL fabric, then you can get first-class bespoke for the same price as MTM. Steed charges GBP 1,850/EUR 2,150 for a 2 piece suit made from LL cloth. As Michael said, they visit Paris, so you wouldn't have any travel expenses either. I can personally attest to the fact that they do excellent work. Edwin and Thomas Mahon used to be partners, they were both cutters at A&S, and I suspect they use many of the same outworkers, so I think you would get a very similar result from either one.

[hsw9001]

There is a French Tailoring thread at SF with some locals participating who claim to have tried pretty much every Parisian tailor at different price points.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/346199/fren ... st_6323126

You might be able to get some insight from them there.

[alden]

That was quite a read.

Gregory, I would suggest you concentrate on seeing Steed and Marc di Fiore as both seem to be in or near your price range for a full bespoke suit. If you need RTW suits, try Arthur & Fox.

Cheers

[Garbo]

Dear David,
I took a look at suitsupply website : their suits seemed nice and the pricing very honest (especially for their MTM line suit up) but i'm afraid I'm a little bit too round to wear their cut (1m73, 85 kg). Notheless, next time I go to london or Brussels, I will take a look

Dear hsw9001,
This was quite a good read , thanks for the link. Gambler seems worth a look (or even a try). I noticed they tend to consider Cifonelli RTW (on sales) as a pretty good deal

Dear Michael,
Steed or Difiore seem indeed the way to go to upgrade my wardrobe : price range ok for my present mindset, I can meet them in Paris and I have some LL Cloth ready to be cut (a navy bue mistral)
Arthur & Fox have indeed some nice clothing (I bought a lot of shirts there) and their suit are made in a very good italian workshop : Caruso (same as Cifonelli). To be honest , I even considered to buy them a suit (they have one shop near Cifonelli) but I was allured by the idea of having a Cifonelli suit , since the sales pricing is the same.

I will post some photos of my new suit as soon I get it and maybe some fellow members can give me their thought about it (this thread being now lively )

Best regards

Gregory