Reason for using different sleeve lining?

[Julian]

My bespoke adventures continue. I've just picked up my third sport coat commission and I've been caught unawares by a detail that, having never had the ability to influence it with ready-to-wear (RTW), I'd never even noticed and never thought to specify when commissioning any of my three jackets.

Because I'm still working on finding a tailor that I feel offers a good service and that has a house style that is reasonably in line with my tastes each of my first three commissions has been from a different tailor. On my first two bespoke jackets the sleeves have been lined with the same lining material used for the rest of the jacket. In both cases I chose a lining that matched the main cloth. On my third and most recent commission I also chose a lining material that matched the main cloth and this material has been used for all of the lining except for the sleeves which are lined in a very pale cream material.

I didn't notice the sleeve lining until I got home and immediately went to my wardrobe to go through all of my RTW suit and odd jackets to see what was the norm. In my wardrobe it is almost exactly an even split between jackets that use the same lining material throughout and those that use a very pale cream lining for the sleeves.

I probably am going to need a few minor tweaks on a couple of small fit and style issues and I do prefer to have the same lining all over so I'm considering adding this to the list of changes but I'm wondering whether there is some reason why some tailors choose a different lining. Is it because some are concerned that the lining in the sleeves gets more wear as the jacket is taken on and off and so prefer to use more durable material for the sleeve lining or is it purely a issue of aesthetic preferences and/or tradition?

The tailor is H.Poole by the way.

- Julian

[hectorm]

Dear Julian,
somewhere among the treasure of knowledge in the LL threads there is a very good post by lxlloyd dealing with this topic. I wasn't able to find it myself but someone else with more skills and patience could.
If I remember correctly the difference in lining -beyond color preferences- had to to with the smoothness of surface and easiness of sliding one's arms down the sleeves.

[Julian]

Thank you Hector. I suspect the thread that you are referring to is this one that I managed to find

http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... 949#p68949

Since my coloured lining is quite smooth and not the grosgrain that lxlloyd mentioned as a possible source of problems with friction I think that I will request a change of lining for the sleeves. I can only assume that Poole simply defaulted to their house practice in the absence of specific instructions from me. I suppose that maybe I should have known to specify, but then again equally they could have specifically checked with me so this doesn't seem an unreasonable change request. I think the pitch on one of the sleeves is slightly off anyway, plus I'm probably going to get the front dropped to change the balance slightly; I assume this means that at least one if not both of the sleeves will be off during those changes.

Are others here careful to specify uniform or different body/sleeve lining or is this a detail that some consider too insignificant to worry about?

- Julian

[cathach]

The tradition was that different lining was used in the sleeves, I believe it was also in a different narrower width [30" wide] there is no practical reason for it now except for tradition or the cases that lxlloyd mentions.

[aston]

I have been told by a (very well regarded) bespoke tailor that, in the past, different, and normally striped, linings were used for sleeves because they were cheaper than that used in the body of the coat.

His view was that there was really no other reason; all the costs he has made me over the years have had the same lining in both body and sleeves.

[Frederic Leighton]

In almost all my vintage coats* the sleeves are lined in a cotton fabric that looks absolutely like shirting. I also heard that this was probably done in order to save on the more costly lining used for other parts, although I wonder whether cotton offers higher durability compared to silk in the sleeves, which are particularly subject to wear. I still get the sleeves (and the inside of the waistcoat) lined with cotton on my new coats.

* Yes, vintage; sorry about that

[davidhuh]

Are others here careful to specify uniform or different body/sleeve lining or is this a detail that some consider too insignificant to worry about?

- Julian

Dear Julian,

definitely too insignificant to worry about. Here is what I consider, depending on intended use plus my mood
- Material: silk, ermazine, bemberg, self lining, half lining or no lining
- Colour: matching or contrast or some nice foulard silk

Most of my every day coats have a matching bemberg throughout. The lining is for comfort, not for show.

Cheers, David

[couch]

I will contribute one other explanation that I've heard from an older SR cutter, which may be more myth than truth--but here it is for what it's worth. He opined that the traditional light-colored sleeve lining was intended to avoid the shirt cuff and lower sleeve (which historically would have usually been white or at least light in color) from being made to look dirty by a dark colored lining being reflected on it. I'm not sure I buy this, and in any case most of the time the sleeve lining isn't exposed to view, so I wouldn't worry about it.

It is true that some established houses adopt a particular pattern of sleeve lining material as a signature. Poole for instance usually uses their house stripe sleeve lining on suits unless the customer requests the same lining as used in the body. On odd jackets they seem happy to go either way.

[T.K.]

I like a contrasting sleeve lining with a more or less bold stripe design, hidden away as a quirky 'private joy'. I was told once that striped sleeve lining has the weave running in the same direction as your arms move in and out and so makes it easier to put the jacket on. Here too, I have no idea whether this makes sense.

The only instance for which I regret not selecting a matching sleeve lining is with a navy fresco jacket that has a navy lining for the body. In artificial light and sometimes during the day, the lining is visible. But even here I would not consider changing the lining.

[DFR]

I believe that this is traditional and you have various suggestions as to why.

I always have the same Harrisons striped sleeve lining in my bespoke suits/coats and would not have it any other way.

[Julian]

Thank you all for the interesting replies. As I suspected it does seem to be down to tradition.

It isn't a big deal but in my experience the sleeve lining is fairly often visible if one raises one's arm(s), to raise a glass for instance, and I do prefer a more uniform matching of lining and cloth rather than the contrast of the cream against a darker cloth. It's not something that I'm too concerned about having changed on my latest jacket since it is quite a minor detail that I'm sure I will soon forget about but, now that I am aware of this design choice, I will be careful to explicitly request a uniform lining for future commissions.

- Julian

[DFR]

Thank you all for the interesting replies. As I suspected it does seem to be down to tradition.

It isn't a big deal but in my experience the sleeve lining is fairly often visible if one raises one's arm(s), to raise a glass for instance, and I do prefer a more uniform matching of lining and cloth rather than the contrast of the cream against a darker cloth. It's not something that I'm too concerned about having changed on my latest jacket since it is quite a minor detail that I'm sure I will soon forget about but, now that I am aware of this design choice, I will be careful to explicitly request a uniform lining for future commissions.

- Julian

If only to show the individualism allowed by bespoke, I would not dream of having any commission (other evening dress oddly) with anything but cream/striped sleeving being adopted. I normally specify the same one and indeed all my jackets are the same in that respect.

[Julian]

If only to show the individualism allowed by bespoke, I would not dream of having any commission (other evening dress oddly) with anything but cream/streamed sleeving being adopted. I normally specify the same one and indeed all my jackets are the same in that respect.

Interesting. It just goes to show that we're all different. I'm pretty understated; I'd probably be a good spy because I'm always the guy in the room who doesn't like to call attention to himself and prefers to blend into the background. The makers for the last couple of shoes that I've commissioned (one bespoke and one high-end MTO) were both slightly perplexed when I said that I didn't want my initials or any other markings or lettering nailed into the sole.

My reason for following the bespoke path is to get a good fit and the ability to choose the combination of fabric and style that I want even if that is very conservative and quite conventional. I got very fed up with the experience when browsing RTW clothing of constantly finding myself thinking "this is a great jacket if only they had it in my size, and this one that is in my size would be great if only the colour was a shade darker/lighter". That experience was rapidly becoming more frequent as more and more manufacturers stopped even bothering to produce their ranges in 36" chest sizes or 30" waists, presumably because those sizes are sliding further and further to the left of the sizing bell curve as the average person is getting bigger and hence shops are becoming less and less willing to devote rack space to smaller sizes. MTO might have given me similar flexibility but to me the price difference between MTO and bespoke wasn't a big issue so I felt that I might as well go for the best fit and the widest choice of style and fabric that bespoke offers me, even if my choices continue to be quite conservative.

My big regret is that I didn't start this journey 20 or 30 years ago since there is a lot to learn, time is needed to find the right tailor and refine the pattern, and a few mistakes along the way seem to be fairly inevitable. It's quite possible that once I feel that I have the foundations laid, i.e. a few commissions under my belt with a tailor that I feel will be my long term choice, then I might find myself putting in a few distinguishing features but somehow I doubt it.

Actually, I say that but one thing that I have specified in all my sport coats so far is a poacher's pocket on the left. This is because when travelling to christmas or birthday parties I am always frustrated that most greeting cards seem to be just a little too wide to fit into an inside jacket pocket; the same is true with a CD or DVD if I have promised to lend such an item to someone and want to bring it with me when I am meeting someone. My now-customary poacher's pocket solves this problem admirably.

- Julian

[Mark Seitelman]

The practice had a very real practical beginning. Now it is a tradition or "signature".

The use of a striped or cream sleeve lining is a holdover from when linings were not bemberg or silk but alpaca. Initially silk was used. It eased slipping in and out of the sleeves.

Alpaca is no longer used for lining. In addition to being too hot and bulkier, I don't think that it is available for a lining. Now bemberg is used. Occasionally silk is employed. Therefore, the practical origins have been lost. But the tailors have held onto this tradition. Some RTW makers still cling to this, such as Brooks Brothers for its top makes and MTM.

Generally, each tailor each has a "signature" stripe. E.g., Davies uses a Bengal stripe in either dark blue or grey depending upon the coat's color. It is a little touch of individuality and "advertising". It also is a little touch that sets apart bespoke from RTW.

A tailor should have no problem in using one lining throughout if that is the customer's wish.

[Julian]

Generally, each tailor each has a "signature" stripe. E.g., Davies uses a Bengal stripe in either dark blue or grey depending upon the coat's color. It is a little touch of individuality and "advertising". It also is a little touch that sets apart bespoke from RTW.

Are you referring to a signature stripe being the "little touch that sets apart bespoke from RTW" or simply the act of using a different lining? If you are referring simply to the use of different lining for the sleeves then, unless RTW has changed its approach in the last 5 to 10 years, the evidence of my wardrobe suggests that simply a different (cream/white) sleeve lining is not a particularly reliable differentiator from RTW. Of the 14 RTW suit and odd jackets that I still have in my wardrobe a total of 6 have unmatched sleeve lining.

- Julian