Hypothetical

[JScott]

“Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it.” - Michaelangelo

I know the differences between MTM and bespoke tailoring have been covered ad nauseam on this and other fora. I don’t think this question has been asked before but apologize in advance if that’s not the case. My question is purely hypothetical.

The difference always cited between bespoke and MTM is that in the former an individualized pattern is drafted from scratch to reflect one’s bodily peculiarities while the latter uses a standard pattern with adjustments made.
Please excuse my ignorance of pattern-drafting for this next part. The question: if the standard pattern is sufficiently large (and I use that word loosely), could the pattern be scaled back to fit the required proportions of an individual. For example we have a person with a 40” chest, 15.5” neck, 18” yoke, regularly sloped shoulders, etc. We choose a pattern with allowances sufficient that abnormalities in one’s body could be compensated for (dropped shoulder, protruding shoulder blades, etc.) That pattern is through each subsequent fitting whittled down until a proper fit is achieved.

The impetus of this post was my reading of the quote at the beginning of this post.. Michaelangelo would chisel a block of stone with the belief that it already contained art within. It was his job to reveal that art. Could the same principle apply to drafting a pattern? If so, would it then cease to be MTM and become bespoke (with the original pattern simply used by the cutter as an aide)?

[marburyvmadison]

That'd, indeed, be interesting to know -- whether a block pattern can be cut down to fit one's size appropriately. After all, I'm guessing that with MTM, one also has a couple of fittings.

[Man at C&A]

That'd, indeed, be interesting to know -- whether a block pattern can be cut down to fit one's size appropriately. After all, I'm guessing that with MTM, one also has a couple of fittings.

I've used MTM a few times from a few suppliers, and will probably do so again from the tailor whom has become my go-to and the resulting suits will be intended for a dull day in the office. There's no fitting, just chosing the fabric and a handful of design options. The result is delivered finished and the result is not much different from RTW, other than the coat length, and shoulder and arms fit is better.

The difference between the MTM and bespoke is the time and care put in to getting the suit fit me rather than fit the block.

[davidhuh]

“Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it.” - Michaelangelo

The impetus of this post was my reading of the quote at the beginning of this post.. Michaelangelo would chisel a block of stone with the belief that it already contained art within. It was his job to reveal that art. Could the same principle apply to drafting a pattern? If so, would it then cease to be MTM and become bespoke (with the original pattern simply used by the cutter as an aide)?

Dear JScott,

excuse my unawareness - was Michelangelo in the MTM business?

Regardless of the answer, I believe your thoughts go wrong. MTM is industry made clothing, adjusted for fit. Depending on the supplier, there might be a fitting or not at all. Whatever "personalised features" go in the suit - it remains an industry made product.

If your question would be "Can MTM fit as well as bespoke?", then my answer would be "In many or most cases yes". There is very good and poor MTM, like there is good and and poor bespoke. But if your question is "Can I get bespoke with the MTM price tag?", the answer is definitely no.

If you are looking for a better fitting business only wardrobe, MTM can be an option. It is unsatisfactory to me, and the single most important reason is the dull cloth being used.

Cheers, David

[marburyvmadison]

It suddenly struck me after I read David's reply and I think other differences would be that in most cases, on a MTM garment, you typically won't find the handwork that usually also sets a bespoke garment apart from the MTM. Things like hand padded lapels and canvass etc that are crucial to imbuing the garment with the three dimensional shape that sets a suit apart.

[hectorm]

We choose a pattern with allowances sufficient that abnormalities in one’s body could be compensated for (dropped shoulder, protruding shoulder blades, etc.) That pattern is through each subsequent fitting whittled down until a proper fit is achieved.....would it then cease to be MTM and become bespoke (with the original pattern simply used by the cutter as an aide)?

The proposition of choosing an oversized pattern with sufficient allowance for any "abnormality" and working from the outside all the way in, IMHO does not make much sense. Given its sheer size, using that oversized pattern would be the equivalent of using it as a blank sheet of tracing paper. It could be that someone was chiseling Michelangelo´s marble block beforehand, but this is not MTM on its way to bespoke.
In the case of a MTM jacket tailors start with the correct standard pattern (for instance 46XL) chosen based on the chest measurement and total length. Then, adjustments are made (in or out).
As David says: There is very good and poor MTM, like there is very good and poor bespoke. Working from an oversized pattern and making adjustments all the way in -even if the suit then is put together by hand, etc. - will never make it bespoke (although I concede that many times the MTM final result fits better).

[marburyvmadison]

Here's why I'm a little skeptical about why solely 'altering down' from a larger block size is a sufficient reason to distinguish MTM and bespoke:

In an excerpt of the article below, Mahon talks about how certain bespoke tailors also work with block patterns, manipulations, and revise it downwards to create a pattern/suit for one's body.

If I'm not reading him incorrectly, it'd seem that the difference in MTM and bespoke would lie in the difference in what is attended to, and adjusted, not the mere fact that they work from a larger pattern and revise it a size down.

Possibly, in MTM, the garment is sent to be made up based on an unmodified block pattern, and then adjustments are made accordingly at the fitting?

However, I stand to be corrected.

Mahon:

"1. Pattern Manipulation.

This is the most common system used. A pre-existing basic block pattern (40, 42 Reg, 44 etc.) is used as a template, a starting point to create an improved, individual bespoke pattern. This will obviously match your dimensions, but most importantly, it will have the correct figuration details, such as how you stand, erect or stooping etc.

('Pattern Manipulation': a basic, template block pattern)

Don’t confuse this with a factory made-to-measure- all you're getting there is the most basic of adjustments- chest, waist and length etc, to gain an 'adequate', standardised fit. But the suit will be designed based on a mannequin's measurements, not your own.

With Bespoke Pattern Manipulation, an experienced Savile Row cutter will tweak with all the points of the pre-existing pattern to produce a new, individual template that's true to your figure. Though not my preferred method, in all fairness this is a good system when used by experienced hands. The main benefit is that the cutter is starting out with a well-tried and tested pattern that he’s familiar with. Also, sparing him from any nasty surprises he may encounter, it saves him the time of drafting from scratch."

[JScott]

Thanks for the replies! Sorry if I my original post wasn't clear but this was a purely hypothetical question. I have no interest in actually trying this technique with a MTM operation and would much rather just use a bespoke tailor. I would assume any cost benefit that may be achieved through MTM would be eroded by the sheer number of fittings and adjustments and would more than likely end up as a detriment. HectorM's reply edified the entire situation for me as using the described technique would in essence be no different than using a blank canvas (except being more complicated ). And given that, I think it's safe to say that no tailor would actually utilize this method. I apologize for the silly question.

[aston]

Interesting.

I am about to receive a "MTM" suit from one of the most respected bespoke tailors on this board.

As to Davidhuh's comment, it will be a 4 ply Finmeresco, so no compromise on cloth.

I am optimistic as to the outcome, but let's see.

[marburyvmadison]

Please do post pictures. I'm actually rather curious how a MTM suit from a respectable tailor will look like.

I ever only used a MTM service once back in university, and given that I had requested for a rather fashionable cut, I'm afraid it isn't a good benchmark for the skill of the tailor.

[rodes]

JScott,
I give you my best answer,not as a tailor but as a geometeur, and philosopher. This is an interesting question, however I speculate that the premise of Michaelangelo does not apply in this case. The reason is that in tailoring one must consider negative space. More simply stated perhaps,one does not get a smaller doghnut by making a smaller hole. Moreover,I trust that even Michaelangelo would agree that the statement is about art as opposed to technique. Perhaps, we could ask if this statement is true,"Every four meters of Brisa cloth has a suit within and it is the task of the tailor to discover it."

[C.Lee]

“Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it.” - Michaelangelo
...
The question: if the standard pattern is sufficiently large (and I use that word loosely), could the pattern be scaled back to fit the required proportions of an individual...

If I can play off the question, that is exactly what a bespoke tailor would do: start with a blank piece of card stock and proceed to drafting a pattern on it. He would use his eye and hand to take away what is needed in order to leave a work of art.

The beautiful thing about a bespoke pattern is that it has the freedom to change over time, from fitting to fitting, garment to garment; with the winds and whims of both customer and tailor; and it does so with the ease of water flowing downhill.

Paraphrasing my son's book, "I am sorry to say so, but sadly it's true, MTM does not do that for you."

[hectorm]

.. given that I had requested for a rather fashionable cut, I'm afraid it isn't a good benchmark for the skill of the tailor.

Dear MvM,
I believe that fashionable cuts do not hide the skill of a tailor. Maybe it´s the opposite.
I committed similar sins during the 70s (flare bottoms, extra wide lapels, long jackets, etc.) and any trained eye could easily distinguish the different levels of craft involved.