What to look for in a trousering?*

[Noble Savage]

I wonder why you would refuse to have your rough tweed trousers lined, ever.

Because when it is cold, one wears proper long johns.

[Simon A]

Knee-length linen boxer shorts do the trick for me, with scratchy tweeds. Cost almost nothing to make, easy to replace when worn out, breathe very well when you are exerting yourself.

[hectorm]

I wonder why you would refuse to have your rough tweed trousers lined, ever.

Because when it is cold, one wears proper long johns.

[rodes]

For several years I had all my suit trousers lined out of habit. Perhaps 3 to 4 years ago I read some LL posts from MA and others that advised unlined trousers and decided to give this a try. I'll never go back to lining. Not a single advantage that I can see and a lot of disadvantages.

[hectorm]

Malcolm Plews was never one for lining trousers either - said it made them difficult to press really well. He would make a "drop-in" lining that you could remove from the leg of the trousers for pressing. Works quite well with tweed.

I read some LL posts from MA and others that advised unlined trousers and decided to give this a try. I'll never go back to lining. Not a single advantage that I can see and a lot of disadvantages.

Agreed that the majority of trousers do not need lining. It´s the opposite with tweeds. I´m talking about real tweeds and not about worsted Alsports and Glorious Twelfth wannabes and the like.
90% or more of gentlemen who wear tweed suits do it in a rus in urbe environment or in a much gentrified country setting. Their tweeds of choice are in general lighter softer versions (that don´t require lining) since the demands they are confronted with are insignificant. These gentlemen would be more concerned with the perfect pressing of their suits or with not being too hot while seeping tea in the sunroom, than with the endeavors for which tweed was originally created.
But a pair of rough hard-wearing tweed breeks designed for field use would be considered to be unfinished if without the proper lining.

[BirdofSydney]

Thanks very much all! I've been snowed under on a parliamentary inquiry, but I am belatedly reading now.

I am, in fact, in Brisbane, Australia, although originally from Sydney, hence the appellation. It's not quite tropical here, although it can feel that way. Recently we seem to be getting milder summers, however.

I have always worn lined trousers, and I am thus inclined to line, although I'm not sure exactly why. I suppose I do fear that the cloth will scratch (I have very sensitive skin, and can't stand woolen socks, for example). I feel like a lining helps preserve a well-pressed trouser front, although given how many venerable tailors don't line, this may be merely my imagination.

I don't think I'm inclined to take the fresco route, simply because I fear that the texture won't really 'go' with my jackets. I might look at a full suit in fresco, or more likely Brisa, somewhere down the track. While on the Brisa topic: can anyone comment as to its ongoing availability? I couldn't find much evidence over at the Cloth Club (I especially like the vivid blue). I suppose I ought to just ask Michael...

I have in mind that a grey with just a hint of blue in it will pair nicely with blazers, as well as something like a chocolate brown jacket with a sky blue windowpane (a forthcoming commission). Alas, not quite sure where to look.

In any case, as winter is coming, I might start with the heavy pair. Simon proposed 400-500g, which seems like a lot for trousers that will be worn inside a not insignificant portion of the time. I had been thinking of Fox Flannel in 370g - will this be too fragile?

And one final question, if I may: Fox says that worsted wool flannel "gives a smoother texture and appearance and also provides a crisper handle to the cloth". Is there truth in this, or is it mere marketing puffery?

Once again, I'm grateful for your guidance and feedback.

Cheers,


Bird

[Simon A]

Flannels are of two types, worsted and woolen. The method of spinning the thread differentiates them. Woolen flannels tend to be softer and less durable, and don't hold a crease that well. Worsted flannels are produced by milling a worsted fabric during finishing to create a fuzzy surface; they are more durable and hold a crease better, but not as luxurious in the hand (or on the legs).

[couch]

. . . and it's harder to get the depth of melange or mottling of color that is the glory of a really fine woolen flannel in the worsted version. So each has its place, and its advantages.

[hectorm]

Fox says that worsted wool flannel "gives a smoother texture and appearance and also provides a crisper handle to the cloth".

IMO exactly what you shouldn't be looking for in a wool flannel.

[alden]

Woolen flannels tend to be softer and less durable, and don't hold a crease that well.

...unless they are made of sufficient weight (greater than 16 ozs.) That is why the LL/Fox flannels are in the 18 ozs range. They drape beautifully, feel wonderful, hold a crease and hold their good looks for a long long time.

Cheers

[lxlloyd]

My tailoring teacher generally advised a partial lining (lining of the front leg down past the knee) for menswear. This prevents the wear on the fabric, significantly extending the life of the cloth, but reduces the heat and pressing issues.

as for the breathability issue brought up.... it's not necessarily set in stone that you have to use viscose or silk. I've been known to use a good quality light cotton voile. or light cotton silk mix (to increase the slipperiness which is what helps to reduce friction that wears the cloth at the knee.) The cotton helps with the wicking.

[hectorm]

My tailoring teacher generally advised a partial lining (lining of the front leg down past the knee) for menswear. This prevents the wear on the fabric, significantly extending the life of the cloth, but reduces the heat and pressing issues.

Dear Alexandra,
although I think that the majority of trousers do not need lining, your teacher´s advice seems reasonable to me. But for prickly rough tweeds partial front lining alone would not cut it. The issue here is not the wear of the cloth but the abrasive action on the inner thighs and the feeling on the top and back of your upper leg.

[BirdofSydney]

Well, I have slid down the slippery slope (not resisting too hard, I must say), and decided I might as well just have a suit made up. It's the second day of winter here, but I am aiming for a spring debut, so I am going to look at the fresco/crispaire/brisa side of things.

I am happier in blue than grey, but of course if I go the grey path, I can have a second trouser made, harking back to the potential odd trouser usage discussed earlier.

My inclinations are as follows: three-roll-two jacket, high notch lapel, four kissing sleeve buttons, minimal padding, slight 'rollino', barchetta, two flapped pockets, unsure whether to fully line or not (I don't want a translucent back that will show my shirt; flat-fronted trousers, slight break, no cuffs, two back pockets, side tabs and perhaps braces buttons as well (no fishtail back).

If I were to have a second trouser, it would have 2" cuffs and belt loops, I think.

A few questions, s'il vous plaites:

1. Are side adjusters, without braces, likely to be sufficient for a fairly trim young man, with a 30" waist but fairly prominent 'seat' and thighs? I am hopeful that my slight 'hourglass' shape (for want of a better word) means that trousers could be counted upon to stay up without braces. Of course, buttons could be added if I wasn't happy with the result. I don't really want a fishtail back, although I am aware of their merits.
2. What is an appropriate weight for a durable summer fabric for sub-tropical climes? I know there's some conjecture about this elsewhere on the forum. Michael recommended (back in '05) 12oz, being more durable than 9-10oz and not see-through.
3. Is there a favourite blue summer cloth, with some depth of colour in either a French navy solid, or perhaps a blue or navy herringbone-weave (say, 1" chevrons)?

Thanks again for the valuable advice - although my plans are slowly evolving, I am storing away the knowledge for future use!

Cheers,

Bird

[davidhuh]

Dear BoS,

a few thoughts below

My inclinations are as follows: three-roll-two jacket, high notch lapel, four kissing sleeve buttons, minimal padding, slight 'rollino', barchetta, two flapped pockets, unsure whether to fully line or not (I don't want a translucent back that will show my shirt; flat-fronted trousers, slight break, no cuffs, two back pockets, side tabs and perhaps braces buttons as well (no fishtail back).

Personally, I would fully line when doing flapped or jetted pockets because this pocket style looks business
I would question the two back pockets (what for?). If the tailor is doing a good job on the trousers, he will do his best to make the unspeakable look sexy. Back pockets ruin it, especially if one decides to use them.

If I were to have a second trouser, it would have 2" cuffs and belt loops, I think.

Always a good idea to do a second trouser. I would recommend to do the cuffed pair with buttons for braces and side adjusters, and inverted pleats. You may learn something and be surprised (especially given your "prominent" seat ). Inverted pleats really work when a trouser is worn higher, on your natural waist. This almost requires braces and not a belt. If you think about wearing braces, try it out.

And of course, if you want to have belt loops, you can do a flat front, as you will likely wear these trousers at a lower point.

A few questions, s'il vous plaites:

1. Are side adjusters, without braces, likely to be sufficient for a fairly trim young man, with a 30" waist but fairly prominent 'seat' and thighs? I am hopeful that my slight 'hourglass' shape (for want of a better word) means that trousers could be counted upon to stay up without braces. Of course, buttons could be added if I wasn't happy with the result. I don't really want a fishtail back, although I am aware of their merits.

Agree on the fishtail back, as this is an acquired taste so to speak. But do I understand that this is your first pair of trousers with side adjusters? I recommend to do the side adjusters and foresee buttons for braces. I know several men who wear their trousers with side adjusters only. For me personally, it doesn't work and I do it only exceptionally because I don't feel comfortable. I have to adjust these things constantly, because I'm never quiet and move around a lot. Wearing braces, I can just forget about it and feel relaxed. But this is
a) personal and you need to find out
b) the side adjuster only option requires a good trouser maker doing well fitting trousers - well, I have that one, but it doesn't help me either...

2. What is an appropriate weight for a durable summer fabric for sub-tropical climes? I know there's some conjecture about this elsewhere on the forum. Michael recommended (back in '05) 12oz, being more durable than 9-10oz and not see-through.

It is not only a question of weight, but also one of weave. Very good summer cloth I have experience with and which will work in your climate are hopsack (called Mistral in LL subscriptions), Brisa, the old Lesser tropical, the defunct Rangoon bunch , Irish linen. Forget the super 180 nonsense.

3. Is there a favourite blue summer cloth, with some depth of colour in either a French navy solid, or perhaps a blue or navy herringbone-weave (say, 1" chevrons)?

A matter of taste my friend, you need to find out what works best for you and the way you will be using the suit. Don't forget hopsack though

cheers, David

[hectorm]

Are side adjusters, without braces, likely to be sufficient for a fairly trim young man, with a 30" waist but fairly prominent 'seat' and thighs? I am hopeful that my slight 'hourglass' shape (for want of a better word) means that trousers could be counted upon to stay up without braces.

Dear BoS,
the only bespoke trousers that require of braces to stay in place are those which are cut in a way that makes them to require of braces to stay in place. Have you noticed that clowns always wear braces?. Their pants are cut that way.
Seriously, if your hips are wider than your waist, then your trousers can be pretty easily cut in a way that they will stay in place without the need for braces (nor a belt). IMO side adjusters should never be the main mechanism for keeping your trousers up, but just a way for fine tuning your waist band. Granted not all men are built equal so, for some, braces are the only solution, but if possible I would stay away from braces for that subtropical suit of yours.
By the way, I agree with David's advice and would go for full lining and cuffs given the other characteristics you described.