Article by Alden: The first serious step in bespoke

[internationalist]

I like this (http://dresswithstyle.com/2011/09/28/th ... n-bespoke/):
So, the first step in bespoke is to get a serious shirt, one that fits, made by the best craftsmen you can’t afford before you step foot inside a tailor’s shop. When you have acquired short term funding from the IMF and had a proper shirt made, have it duplicated in Bangladesh and never (ever) vary from its measures.

Gentlemen, let's talk about shirts. Let's say I'm new and don't know anything about shirts except that I prefer the T-sleeve to the A-sleeve (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10648).

- I have no clue about fabrics. Which are good ones? Where to get them? I see the LL Cloth Club for suits (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10574), but where to go for shirt fabrics?
- Are the easier to iron fabrics better (I'm not talking about the no-iron fabrics, just the easier to iron fabrics) than the ones that are more difficult to iron or just different?
- For example Cloth Ermenegildo Zegna is a very popular brand, I can check out how it feels wherever I am even in the countryside, but it's a brand of suit cloth, not a shirt fabric.

- As far as I know a bespoke made suit takes 2 measuring sessions (for the jacket and the pant too?), how about the shirt?

So I like Alden's idea of having made one really good shirt with a shirt maker I can't afford then have it replicated. So I'm looking for two artisans here.

1st of one in Europe, I guess in Italy I may have a better value for my money than in the UK, but that's just my guess. Sure, the article states to chose the best tailor I can't afford but really, who are regarded as exceptional value for the money for the forum members? I can fly to him with Ryanair, no problem.

2nd, for the replication. I have in mind that sending the shirt via post to Asia and have it replicated there. Have you heard of these people? http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/02/fashi ... -kong.html
(Seems like George W. Bush have made a suit with them.) Or any similar or even better service?

Let's say i want some alterations later from the cheaper shirt replicator. Eg. a different type of collar, cuffs, a most casual or a more sporty shirt. Will he be able to do it only by seeing the "master shirt" I sent him by post?

Let's talk about prices, too. That's important. I can't help, I just really like to get good value for money is everything. So what are reasonable prices to pay for
- Fabric
- Artisan 1 for the master shirt
- Artisan 2 for replicating it?

Ps. It might be a good idea to have some orientation articles or posts here so that new people don't have to ask the same things over and over again. Thank you.

[Manself]

You've opened a can worms!

I suggest you should only worry about getting one great shirt, before you give any thought to finding someone to replicate it. Achieving one great shirt is an Everest-like accomplishment, at least in London. Also, the notion of replication is interesting to me. If a cheap-ish shirtmaker is able to replicate the work of a great, and thus expensive, shirtmaker, why isn't the cheap-ish shirtmaker charging more for his/ her work? In my experience there are very few people who charge less than the going rate for any given product, although kudos to you if you can find one.

Fabric selection is dependent on how and where you'll use the shirts. The LL linens are beautiful, but you may not want to wear them with worsted pinstripes and black oxford shoes. I'd be suspicious of anything that promises easy-iron, but that may just be prejudice speaking.

If this is simple so far, now it gets complicated:
http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =4&t=10862

[Simon A]

The first few bespoke shirts can be less than perfect, so I would not spend a huge amount on the cloth involved in your initial orders. Sometimes it takes a year of regular washes to figure out how everything will perform in real life. Ask the shirtmaker for some good basic fabrics for your first half-dozen or so shirts.

Some people have good experiences with "cheap" shirtmakers, I have not. I have found mid-priced shirtmakers are usually willing to make adjustments at their expense to get fit right and keep you happy. I am talking about artisans that charge about USD$100-120 labour per shirt. They know if you are satisfied and the relationship is free of drama, you will probably send $1000-2000 a year their way, for many years, until you become seriously wealthy and start indulging in Charvet shirts:)

[internationalist]

Step by step:

• 1. So how many measuring sessions are normal for a shirt? If I remember correctly, for a suit it's two sessions?
  
  2. So do you say it's difficult to get a good shirt done even on the Savile Row in London? Interesting. What are the hallmarks of a good shirt? What should I look for?
  
  3. Actually, I asked for some Italian masters, for whatever reason. I thought that would be a good idea.
  
  4. First, where to learn about fabrics? What are reasonable prices for the fabric and for the work? Do you say for the work $100-120 is reasonable? In what part of the world? It seems low to me but I'm OK with that.
  
  5. Sure, the material is not that expensive, I expect to pay less for the material than for the work.
  
  6. Actually, I'm looking for cotton shirts for the moment, not linen. OK, actually I have no idea what are the advantages/disadvantages of cotton vs. linen for a dress/casual shirt. (viewtopic.php?p=69732#p69732)
  
  7. How those Charvet shirts compare to Borrelli of Naples in quality/price? Not for a first shirt, just asking.
  
  8. What is your take on T-sleeves vs. A-sleeves (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10648)?

Thank you.

[hectorm]

What is your take on T-sleeves vs. A-sleeves.

When it comes to commissioning a bespoke shirt, the considerations between T-sleeves and A-Sleeves are not relevant any more. You will not be telling your shirtmaker that you want either type of construction. A good shirtmaker will be focusing on the right size of armhole, sleeve length and width, which in combination with a tight cuff, will give you an unbelievable freedom of movement while everything else stays in place and without "bunching" of cloth under arm.

[internationalist]

Bunching excess cloth under my arm was never an issue. What was more of an issue was A-shaped sleeves and restricted movement.

You say all will be great when I meet the shirtmaker, and so on. So far so good but I actually need more guidance on the issue, hence my other questions in the previous post, thank you.

[hectorm]

What was more of an issue was A-shaped sleeves and restricted movement.

I hear you, internationalist. This problem will also be eliminated with a bespoke shirt. The armhole will be set up high and no bigger that your arm and shoulder require.
At a given neck size, RTW shirts must have bigger armholes to accommodate different size of arms and shoulders, and that is what makes the movement so restricted. You raise your arm and the side of the shirt pulls out of your pants and the side of the sleeve clings from above. A nightmare.
Regarding your other questions about the hallmarks of a good shirt, Charvet, Italian shirtmakers, etc.: this is a very common topic and there have been many posts on the LL It will be easy for you to find them through the Search feature.

[internationalist]

I did a quick search, this is the only thread Charvet is mentioned. As for Italian bespoke shirts, am I supposed to dig them out of the long thread called Good shirtmaker in UK? I'm not complaining, it just sounds counter-intuitive for me.

Sure, it may sound like I am pointing to others but it is a fairly common practice an Internet forums to have sticky threads, collections of best threads and posts for the convenience of all and for newcomers don't have to ask the same things over and over again.

As I am the newcomer here, yeah, it may sound like I'm pointing to someone else with this request, as it's obviously not me who already know what are the gems here.

[internationalist]

This is important:

http://www.webflakes.com/fashion/bonne- ... erg-shirts
Whether you choose to go to a made-to-measure shirt house or a ready-to-wear brand, in either case you accept a stylistic bias in terms of the artisan or the brand. Your complete set of measurements will never result in the exact same shirt with all tailors, because some will leave a bit more slack here and there, others will signature-hug close to the body, etc. But you are always going in blind, so to speak, because in the end, it is the tailor who decides.

So at whichever tailor, it is better to try on some of his RTW samples, right?

[vincentporsiempre]

This is important:

http://www.webflakes.com/fashion/bonne- ... erg-shirts
Whether you choose to go to a made-to-measure shirt house or a ready-to-wear brand, in either case you accept a stylistic bias in terms of the artisan or the brand. Your complete set of measurements will never result in the exact same shirt with all tailors, because some will leave a bit more slack here and there, others will signature-hug close to the body, etc. But you are always going in blind, so to speak, because in the end, it is the tailor who decides.

So at whichever tailor, it is better to try on some of his RTW samples, right?

No! It is better to discuss which each tailor how you would like the shirt to fit, then at fitting again indicate if you need more or less room. A good bespoke shirtmaker will cut you a shirt out of a muslin fabric (or in Italy a "telino" which is a shirting fabric of hold production as far as I have experienced).

Having said that, I have had bespoke shirts made by several shirtmakers and indeed they vary in fit a bit between them all, probably 1-2 cm here and there at most, but I was impressed by the fact that the yoke width, that influence mobility of the arms/shoulder together with armholes hight, was virtually the same with all but a couple of shirtmaker, so to indicate that my shoulder points/end were almost always interpreted as the same.

[hectorm]

I did a quick search, this is the only thread Charvet is mentioned.

Please re-try your search on Charvet. You must be doing it too quickly. I just wrote Charvet on the box with the magnifying glass and found at least 27 threads in which Charvet is mentioned before I stopped looking.

[Frederic Leighton]

When it comes to commissioning a bespoke shirt, the considerations between T-sleeves and A-Sleeves are not relevant any more. You will not be telling your shirtmaker that you want either type of construction. A good shirtmaker will be focusing on the right size of armhole, sleeve length and width, [..]

Here an account of my first step. Despite living in London, I decided to go for an Italian shirt-maker, mainly because there is no such thing as a minimum order. Also, with the same flight I could visit my parents in Italy and enjoy a bit of that 26C temperature. Overall, what a fascinating experience!

No answer when I first got in touch with the shirt-maker by email 20 days ago. Few days later I called and asked if they could check their email and we immediately agreed on the process. They usually measure the customer, cut the shirt out and make all the adjustments on the shirt. I suggested I would send them the measurements by email, they would cut a shirt out of a muslin fabric, I would visit them, try the sample-shirt up, get some adjustments done and eventually have the real shirt cut out and sent to London.

I was in the shop yesterday and everything run smoothly. A man in his late 60s welcomed me. He gave me the sample-shirt he had cut according to the provided measurements and I tried it up. I spent some time moving a bit and watching myself in the mirror, struggling to judge the fit since the shirt was extremely different from what I am used to.

I asked the man few things and his opinion. I was finding the sleeves to be a bit on the short side, and the same was probably true for the front and the back of the shirt. He informed me that he had already taken note of the only necessary alteration while I was still seeing myself in the mirror - one centimeter less in the chest below the armpit. That was all, but of course I was free to ask any other change. I decided to let the old man do his job. He has some decades experience and I am at my first bespoke shirt. To be honest, at the moment there is no point in me suggesting anything to him

Then I chose all the details and the fabric. I was charged some extras for handmade buttonholes (10EUR), shipping to the UK (10EUR) and for the particular shirting of choice (10EUR). Hand-sewn monogram, mother of pearl buttons, french placket and even a detachable collar copied from a collar I provided - everything was included in the standard service. I spent 150EUR and the shirt will be in London in 15-20 days time. The pattern will be updated with the changes made to the sample-shirt that I tried up in the shop and this will make future orders and alterations a bit easier and more accurate.

I'm a size 35 chest; I can easily see enough fabric for two shirts in every RTW shirt I buy. I also don't like at all the wide spread collars that seem preponderant in RTW shirts. This is what made me look around for some alternatives.

[internationalist]

I did a quick search, this is the only thread Charvet is mentioned.

Please re-try your search on Charvet. You must be doing it too quickly. I just wrote Charvet on the box with the magnifying glass and found at least 27 threads in which Charvet is mentioned before I stopped looking.

Thanks. Now it shows up. Maybe there was a glitch in the system.

[internationalist]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

Though I made a search on your posts and haven't found more on your chosen tailor.

I only found one reference about when in Naples, stay away from Internet tailors there. Though, you may not even went to that part of Italy.

[Frederic Leighton]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Though I made a search on your posts and haven't found more on your chosen tailor. I only found one reference about when in Naples, stay away from Internet tailors there. Though, you may not even went to that part of Italy.

I come from Lombardy so I chose a shirt-maker in the North of the country. I didn't know him and didn't read any review of his work. I just chose someone who has been cutting shirts for some decades, based in a city and with an old workshop.