My first bespoke Dinner Jacket

[mafoofan]

I would advise against a cummerbund with a DB DJ.
A trick that works for me when I'm wearing DB jackets with no vents at dinner is to undo the outside button and keep the interior button fastened. You'll see that It opens up nicely and you're not showing the meeting of trousers and shirt to anybody.

I don't see what the problem would be with wearing a cummerbund under a double-breasted jacket. That's how I wear mine. Are you concerned it will make the jacket too tight? In my experience, the cummerbund doesn't add any notable thickness. In fact, it makes everything underneath the jacket more streamlined.

I'm not sure what unfastening only the outside button accomplishes. It seems you'll just be left with the front free to swing about, while you haven't made the jacket any more comfortable to sit in.

For reference, here's my double-breasted diner suit worn with a cummerbund underneath:

[hectorm]

Dear Mafoofan,
if you really like to wear a cummerbund under your double breasted jacket because you noticed that it gives you a more streamlined figure and you plan to eventually make it visible to others when you unbutton your DB coat, then there is nothing I could say to convince you of the contrary.
But if you had some doubts about it, I would try to persuade you saying that a DB jacket should be worn buttoned at all times and -if it is a good jacket- it will be cut in a way that doesn't restrict you (too much) to the point of being uncomfortable or rumpled when you sit down.
You would probably agree with me that men look their best when their waists are covered and you don't see the lower part of their shirts. This is particularly crucial when being at your best wearing black-tie. And that is the role of a cummerbund (or better indeed a waistcoat) with a SB jacket, or the role of an always fastened DB jacket.
A cummerbund is then superfluous (and even at odds) with a DB jacket.

Regarding the unfastening of the outside button with the inside button still on when sitting at dinner. Believe me it does make a small but significant difference specially when done with a jacket with no vents. It keeps the jacket tight around your waist (without showing any shirt against the trousers), keeps the V of your upper shirt intact, and gives you a few extra inches around the buttocks
Here is the link to a picture I found of the Prince of Wales successfully resorting to that "trick".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-18314573

[mafoofan]

I'm still not understanding how undoing the outside button has any benefit when sitting. The internal button keeps the jacket as tight as ever. Plus, as I pointed out earlier, it leaves the front free to flap about. That photo of Prince Charles doesn't really commend the practice. It just looks like he forgot to button his jacket.

Keep in mind, it also makes a difference whether your dinner jacket is 4x1 or 6x2. A 6x2 jacket is much more likely to remain comfortable fastened in a sitting position since the buttoning point is much closer to your natural waist. In contrast, the buttoning point of a 4x1 jacket is going to be inherently much lower.

Anyway, I understand cummerbunds are not necessary with a double-breasted jacket and many go the double-breasted route in part because the would like to forego waist coverings. But I've yet to seen in written anywhere that pairing the two is simply forbidden, in poor taste, or against black tie etiquette. Yet, through personal experience, I realize there is still some practical benefit to be had.

[NJS]

You couldn't give us a shot of the cummerbund over the jacket, could you, so that we can see it?

NJS

[Gianfrancesco]

The cummerbund doesn't add a real thickness, as it should be made very attached to the waistline.
However the dinner jacket should not be so attached at the waist point, that also partly explains the way it wrinkles more when you are seated.
The point in a dinner jacket is having a good line without any wrinkles or too much closure to the waist.
However the Smith mohair is fantastic, good fabric choice.

[Noble Savage]

This is exactly the reason why evening coats evolved to their present unbuttonable mode, while still fitting the waist.

[Costi]

Mafoofan, nice lapels on that DJ.
Why are you all carrying three tickets (or invitations) in that photograph?!

Comfort (with respect to the tailcoat) is the reason why black tie evolved at all. The more comfort, the better. Anything going against this idea of relaxed appropriateness, veering towards (uncomfortable) formality, complication or restriction of movement, seems to me a misunderstanding of the basic principle of black tie. May each be the judge of what is (un)comfortable for oneself - physically and psychologically. Some feel naked without a red carnation in the buttonhole, others can't be bothered to wrap themselves in a cummerbund.

[Sartorial Caledonian]

This is particularly crucial when being at your best wearing black-tie. And that is the role of a cummerbund (or better indeed a waistcoat) with a SB jacket, or the role of an always fastened DB jacket.

The more I think of a waistcoat with a SB dinner jacket, the more I like the idea. It may be due to the limited circles I move in, but it seems that gentlemen prefer a cummerbund or DB dinner jacket these days.

After a quick look on the Internet, I must say I prefer the look of a low cut waistcoat, but this to my mind has raised a number of conundrums.

Do any of the LL members have any experience of a waistcoat with a dinner jacket? The topic begs a number of questions on waistcoats including whether SB or DB is preferred, the style of collar and type of buttons.

Your opinion and experience is most welcome.

SC.

[hectorm]

The more I think of a waistcoat with a SB dinner jacket, the more I like the idea.
Do any of the LL members have any experience of a waistcoat with a dinner jacket? The topic begs a number of questions on waistcoats including whether SB or DB is preferred, the style of collar and type of buttons. Your opinion and experience is most welcome.

I think you are in a good path, SC.
A horseshoe (scoop deep rounded line single breasted)
waistcoat is IMO much more elegant than a cummerbund for covering your waist and more in line with a bespoke dinner suit.
Currently I have two dinner suits. The war horse -a heavier barathea SB (the other one is a fancier DB in a mohair mix)- has such a matching waistcoat. I don´t own a cummerbund. The waistcoat is backless (with only straps) and that keeps it comfortable and cool when it´s warm. The waistcoat is really low-cut (so you can barely see it with the DJ buttoned up) and it has 3 buttons covered in the same grosgrain of the DJ lapels and 2 little pockets. My tailor added little tabs on the vest that you attach to your trousers keeping everything nicely in place.
My waistcoat has received lots of compliments and -believe it or not- it´s a key element that, while getting ready for a night event, really makes me feel like wearing a dinner suit.
I hope all this helps as an encouragement to make you ditch the cummerbund and switch to the waistcoat.

[Sartorial Caledonian]

Hello hectorm.

Agreed! The SB, low cut, horseshoe style of waistcoat is very pleasing on the eye and to my mind would set off a stiff-fronted shirt very well indeed.

Tell me, does your waistcoat have a collar? I know most military mess dress waistcoats do, but civilian equivalents seem to be thin on the ground to serve as a comparison.

SC

[hectorm]

Tell me, does your waistcoat have a collar? I know most military mess dress waistcoats do, but civilian equivalents seem to be thin on the ground to serve as a comparison.

It does not.
I remember discussing it with my tailor and, more or less (it was 17 years ago), coming to the shared conclusion that it was a bit too much and was going to detract from the clean lines of the SB DJ.

[rogiercreemers]

I have a similar waistcoat, and that is usually the thing that gets me compliments. Never really saw the charm of a cummerbund...

[hectorm]

I have a similar waistcoat, and that is usually the thing that gets me compliments. Never really saw the charm of a cummerbund...

Ditto.
I have not worn a cummerbund since 1996 when I had my first bespoke DJ commissioned. Before then, although I never really loved it, I tolerated it as a mandatory part of the SB dinner suit ensemble, but once I tried the waistcoat, there was not coming back.
With the "arrival" of the waistcoat, which is backless, not only I ditched the cummerbund but I also ditched the braces. Too many straps going around.

[davidhuh]

Thank you Mr. Alden and other fellow members,

I understand that the ventless model is the most proper for DJ but would side vents make the jacket look better when seated? It may also seems uncomfortable if you can't reach your hands into your pockets (even if you do not have anything in them).

As for Prince Michael's jacket, it seems quite mid-night blue to me...

Kent2.jpg

Watson

Gentlemen,

it is always when I'm reviving an old thread that I realise what a gold mine the LL is

I owe this forum some pictures of my finished DB shawl collar dinner suit. The technical information:
- Smith Woolens midnight blue all wool barathea, 13 oz
- Side vents for comfort (the tailor was right, it is comfortable when sitting)
- Black silk facing
- Prince Michael's picture above served as model

The coat was cut by Mr Thomas Mahon. Here it is on his cutting table: http://www.englishcut.com/2012/11/29/shawl-collars/
Pants overseas. Cream dinner shirt with pleated front by Budd.
Do not look at the shoes please (pumps in repair)






Cheers, David

[bond_and_beyond]

Thats's a gorgeous dinner suit David, thanks for posting. What type of silk braid did you choose for the trousers? Abit hard to make out from the photo.

BB