Bespoke Shoes

[carl browne]

Forgive me if this question is asked and answered elsewhere.

Which English bespoke shoe outfit gives the greatest value for money?

I have a pair of John Lobb Paris bespoke shoes (French,obviously) and they were very expensive when I bought them 10 years ago--roughly $3,000.00 then, I expect more today. The shoes are very nice, but nothing spectacular. John Lobb London is also very high too I think. What about Foster, Maxwell, Gaziano & Girling, and Cleverly? The caveat is that I live near Los Angeles, and don't get to London very often, so I can only use the outfits that visit.

I wonder if bespoke shoes are really even necessary for me. I have very little trouble with fit on RTW, so little in fact that I don't perceive my Lobbs to be any more comfortable. What I'm really looking for is the highest level of quality and designs and materials that are more distinctive than most RTW outfits provide. I also insist that they can be resoled by the makers using original lasts and materials. I've had some luck with Edward Green Top Drawer where I've called out the model, leather, and last. This made to order arrangement may be good enough and somewhat more economical.

But a couple of questions remain: Is the quality as good as the bespoke, and are the designs really as distinctive?

Thanks,

C

[Frog in Suit]

I can only write about my own experience.
I have had four pairs of bespoke shoes made by Foster & Son since 2010 and am pondering the next one (next year).
I find bespoke shoes to be better fitting (closer, without being too tight), lighter and much better-looking, in terms of shape (elegance) and leather quality and appearance (and you can choose the lining colour!).
The design is really up to you: I have defined what I wanted with the shoemaker who deals with me (Ms. Emiko Matsuda) in terms of toe shape, sole, design of the uppers, etc. There was no pressure to choose a particular design (I do not like the seemingly currently popular “chisel toe”) so we determined what toe shape to select after looking at some examples, of which there are many around the shop. Ms Matsuda was very painstaking in taking measurements. There was an interim fitting for the first pair. The final product (I always take delivery in London) is checked for fit in the shop.
The first two pairs were based on my own (vague) ideas. Pair number three was inspired by a 1930s Lobb design from the latter’s web site. The latest one was an existing pattern (fully brogued monk shoe) but in a different colour (brown).
Cost: ca 2,500 or 2,600 £, if I remember correctly, including VAT and shoe trees.
So, to answer your question: the design is up to you; how distinctive you want it to be is your decision entirely (I opted for classic patterns for my first orders); they will of course repair their own shoes (and others, perhaps) but mine are too recent for that.
I think they travel to California.
I hope this helps.
Frog in Suit

[Kayak81]

I'm far from an expert, but so far I've been very happy with Gaziano & Girling. G&G's prices are significantly cheaper than Lobb London, but I'm not sure how they compare to the other London shoemakers. My feet are very difficult to fit, so I had no choice but to go bespoke. It's a very slow process though, particularly if you don't get to London that often. It's been a year so far, and I still need to get some minor fit issues ironed out before they start on my second pair.

If you're an easy fit and you like G&G's stock models, then I would suggest MTO. MTO is about 1/3 the cost of bespoke and the process is much quicker. Basically you choose one of their stock models and get to choose the color, toe shape and sole material. You have to take a stock size, but each foot is measured separately. I believe that you can also request some minor changes to the design if you wish. As the shoes are made to the shape of an existing last, you probably won't need the multiple fittings that bespoke requires.

I believe there is more handwork and a slightly higher grade of leather used in their bespoke shoes than in their MTO, but I'm not sure if most people could tell the difference. In any event, the quality will still be way above that of even the highest grade RTW.

I don't believe G&G goes to Los Angeles, but they will be in San Francisco in late October.

[couch]

If you don't have any difficulty with fit, and if they make visits to California (I know they come to the East Coast), I would seriously look at Gaziano and Girling's MTO program. You'll get much of the make, lightness, and stye of excellent bespoke for considerably less money. It's not quite the same, but you can select lasts, leathers, and details, and a wider range of widths/fittings, and the standard of work is very high. Their finished MTO shoes look more like bespoke than just about any non-bespoke shoes I've seen. If you like their lasts, it's outstanding value for money. Tony and Dean will certainly provide excellent after-care. I believe there is some slight quality difference between the upper leathers used in the best bespoke shoes and even top-notch MTO, but I sincerely doubt if that will make any difference to the shoe's durability at these levels of quality. The differences are more likely to be subtle improvements in flexibility and appearance, not always apparent when the shoes are polished and worn.

[couch]

Ha! I see Kayak 81 posted while I was composing my response. Well, that's two testimonials. I'm very happy with my G&Gs.

[Julian]

I can't really comment on quality because I've only had my first (temporary sole) fitting for my first pair of George Cleverley shoes but I can comment on price.

I had tried G&G made-to-order beforehand and, due to my having UK size 7 feet which are quite narrow, I found that G&G's already quite elongated lasts looks far too elongated for my liking. My particularly narrow left heel also made the fit quite poor. At the time I investigated pricing for bespoke and G&G quoted me bespoke pricing starting from £2965 (inc VAT) in February this year. I'm paying £2,500 (inc VAT) for my George Cleverley bespoke which are a fairly plain pair of black oxfords so I suspect that the £2,500 is also a "starting from" price. UK VAT is currently 20% so if you're not liable to UK VAT (sales tax) then divide those prices by 1.2.

In comparing bespoke makers I am told that some attribute the cost of making the last entirely to the first pair so that subsequent pairs are cheaper whereas others operate a same-price-every-time policy (subject to any inflationary price increases of course). Cleverley operate a same-price-every-time policy (i.e. pricing for subsequent shoes is not reduced to reflect the fact that the last is already made) and I believe that G&G operate the same policy.

Although price was a factor my main reasons for choosing Cleverley were that I liked their house style, being to my eye somewhat modern and unconventional but not verging quite as far towards "fashion forward" as G&G. I also valued having a maker where I live (London) since it makes it far easier to arrange appointments.

Cleverley had a long lead-time when I visited them in February, they quoted me about 10 months, and so far it looks as if they are on schedule to complete my shoes within that timescale. I was told at my initial fitting last month that, once the last is made, the lead time on subsequent pairs should be about 5 months.

- Julian

[Rowly]

Cleverley have a Rtw. range made to the quality of their bespoke, or so they have told me.
They say that if you are lucky enough that their rtw are a good fit, obviating the need to go bespoke, then you will have top class shoes at a great reduction. It would seem that the Rtw. or Mto. shoes from G&G also fall into this category. Has anyone compared the quality and value of these two options? And/or compared the quality of the finish against real bespoke?

[couch]

II had tried G&G made-to-order beforehand and, due to my having UK size 7 feet which are quite narrow, I found that G&G's already quite elongated lasts looks far too elongated for my liking. My particularly narrow left heel also made the fit quite poor.

This is interesting. I wear a U.S. 12A fitting (AAA heel), which is extremely narrow. (It works out usually to a UK 11.5C.) My G&G MTOs were made on a C fitting and fit nicely in the heel, which has a more formed cup (narrower at the top) than most. It is true that their lasts are elongated (although the "classic round" toe-shape last does not fall outside traditional norms), but that is increasingly true of many makers, alas. The "cross-country ski" look on my long, narrow feet is much reduced in the G&Gs by the unusually narrow and quite contoured waist/instep, which adds variety in the shoe's visual width and thus breaks up the long line somewhat.

I'm not a fan of chisel toes, but the more rounded-toe Cleverley lasts are indeed handsome. Unfortunately they did not have any RTW shoes narrow enough to fit me, and their bespoke was not in my budget. If one cannot afford an entire wardrobe of bespoke shoes, finding high-quality shoes in very narrow fittings is increasingly difficult.

[Kayak81]

I believe that G&G charges a bit less than GBP 2,500 (excl VAT) for their bespoke shoes, which jibes with the figure that Julian quoted. Included with the price, is a pair of bespoke shoe trees, polish, a very nice box and shoe bags. By comparison, Lobb (London) charges GBP 2,860 for just for shoes (excl VAT). Shoe trees will run an extra 555, polish is 11 and shoe bags are 163. It sounds like Cleverly may be cheaper than G&G, but perhaps these additional items aren't included.

If memory serves me correctly, G&G charges about GBP 850 for their MTO shoes, but this doesn't include shoe trees. I didn't notice any substantial differences between the quality/finish of the MTO's on display vs. my bespoke pair, but then I didn't look too closely and I'm not an expert. I should also note that I didn't order anything unusual in terms of styling - just a stock model with a round toes. Most people looking at my shoes would never dream that they're bespoke.

Where I do notice the difference, is in fit and comfort. I have very wide, flat feet and wearing dress shoes has always been painful, particularly if I have to walk any significant distance in them. G&G not only made shoes that fit my feet, but they actually took a set of my orthotics and copied its features right into the insole of the shoes. I had a few problems initially, but Tony took the shoes back and made some adjustments. They are now easily the most comfortable pair of dress shoes I've ever worn. They're not quite as comfortable as running shoes, but are close. There are still a few minor issues which I want to go over with G&G before they start on my next pair of shoes, but I've been quite happy with them so far.

[Badden]

I have tried WS Foster, and would advise caution. Their fitting skills (or at least, their US team's skills) are sub-par - after 5 fittings, they were still unable to fit me properly. And I certainly don't have weirdly shaped feet.

I would recommend Cleverley - very good.

[Jordan Marc]

Carl:

When it comes to bespoke shoes, the best of the best starts with John Lobb, St. James, and ends with
Cleverley. What's the difference between the two makers? John Lobb has been making shoes and boots
and slippers forever, so it would seem. The firm really is the best of the best. Time was Lobbs were almost reasonable in price, assuming you had deep pockets. What used to cost three figures now costs
four to five figures, depending upon the customer's choice of leather. Cleverley makes a somewhat lighter shoe than their regal counterpart. They made the dancing shoes worn by Fred Astaire. Whichever firm you choose, you will be getting the best. Regardless, make sure you order a pair of handmade wooden shoe trees for each pair, preferably the kind that have three interlocking sections apiece. And to keep your shoes looking smart, Google the Saphir products from France and Selvyt cloths made in England.

JMB

[culverwood]

I have four pairs of bespoke shoes by Foster and Son and would not have them if the fit was not superb. I am sorry to hear of Badden's experience and if Emma fitted him I am surprised. To me they beat the others on style and finishing but it is all subjective and I understand other peoples' liking for Cleverly and G&G. Lobb St James do not do it for me style wise.

Good luck with whoever you choose.

[Scot]

And I certainly don't have weirdly shaped feet.

I don't have wierdly shaped feet either. I wear good RTW and have no problem with fit. The problem is with the quality of the make and materials. The soles of C&J hand-grade seem to develop a hole if you stare too hard at them. Is this a reason to go bespoke I wonder?

[stephenm]

I had a pair of bespoke Berluti made 12 years ago. Lovely shoes. Interestingly the fit changes if my weight changes. But superb shoes and I have enough off the shelf Cleverley and Edward Green shoes to compare them to. £3,500 currently and around 10 months lead time.

[Scot]

I visited three London shoemakers on Thursday: Cleverley, Foster and Carreducker. All were welcoming, helpful and informative. Very similar pricing at around £2600 - £2850, trees were extra at Foster but included in the price at the other two. What was appealing about both Cleverley and Foster was that almost all the work is done on the premises. Cleverley were genrally very impressive and gave me an interesting tour of their workshop and a peek into their last room; the longest lead-in time though, of about 10 months. So my first pair of bespoke shoes is now being made by Cleverley. I have yet to share this information with the other half!