Good shirtmaker in UK

[Frog in Suit]

I get my bespoke shirts from New & Lingwood. They are made by Sean O’Flynn who cuts them on “his” premises within Jones Chalk & Dawson / Meyer and Mortimer at 6 Sackville Street.
New & Lingwood (first at Eton, then London) have been making my shirts since the mid- eighties. I remember dealing directly with Sean O’Flynn (late eighties, early nineties ?) when he was running N & L’s bespoke shirts from the smaller of the two shops on Jermyn Street at the corner of the Piccadilly Arcade. I am happy with them and see no reason to change. I am not a large customer as I do not seem to ever wear things out (poplin lasts forever). If I remember correctly, a tunic neckband shirt and two collars from N & L costs about 220 / 250 pounds, including VAT.
I buy casual shirts from Cordings, occasionally Brooks Brothers (in the US only) and L.L. Bean.
I hope this helps.
Frog in Suit

[alden]

I agree that you are not making a new allegation, but you are repeating an allegation second hand.

Berwick

Don't shoot the messanger. The information was supplied to me by the CEO of one of the makers named in this thread. One that is very successful and en vogue at the moment. I do, however, notice that the website of said maker shows only RTW and what is clearly MTO, so a factory makes some sense. In the defense of this well known individual, I should point out that the expression "nearly every shirtmaker" was used and this leaves plenty of room for the true bespoke makers you describe who are few and far between (even on the Continent.)

As regards Mr Sean Flynn, I was the very first to report on his work and provide pictures on the internet on June 22 of 2005.

Individualized or personalized patterns do not immediately confirm the existence of traditional bespoke and I am preparing a piece on that subject. In the meantime you can read this post from 2005 where Alex Kabbatz and I describe the true bespoke process.

http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... poke#p6391

Cheers

[alden]

As for all this chatter about true Italian bespoke and tawdry English MTM, I have tried bespoke shirts from Italian makers who offer all the muslin fittings (Mimmo Siviglia in Rome, Piccolo in Naples), and frankly my English shirts from Budd have always fit better. I could care less for how bespoke these shirts truly are, as long as the fit (and price!) is superior.

Badden,

The only thing a muslin fitting allows is a series of easily executable basted fittings with margin built in whose purpose is having the best possible corrected pattern before the first costly bit of cotton or linen is cut. I say "best possible" because to get the best results from the pattern it will have to stand the test of a fitting with the actual fabric that is to be used. That is a lot of detailed and exacting work that has to be done to get a bespoke shirt to fit right. And this work is normally factored into the price of the product. Full bespoke is an expensive proposition for this reason.

The two makers you tried would not be on my list. You might have better success with an A player. But the truth is that you may absolutely not need full bespoke. The vast majority of men can wear RTW or MTM made from a good block and as such will do very well without the excrutiating series of fittings etc.

Another comment about pricing stems from the inflated strength of the Euro today vis a vis the GBP. In the good old days a sterling would get you more than one and a half euros. That means the current London price of 250 gbp was about the same as the 400 euros price of the very best Continentals. With the weak pound, UK goods are a good choice today, if and only if, the quality is sufficient to needs.

I am curious to visit a few of the workshops if I could get the time.

Cheers

[alden]

All my shirts are wide at the cuff, so they do slide up. When I expressed my astonishment, Mr O'Flynn said that he does not think this is essential, but I cannot remember what reason he gave.

Did other forum members that have used Mr. O'Flynn's services also get shirt cuffs that are too wide?
I wear a watch on one hand, but I can easily hide a big "Audemars Piggy" under both sleeves

Now we know why Sean can't get his own shirts sleeve length right.

The cuff measure should be precise and the fit should be firm but comfortable so the sleeve length is anchored at a fixed point with some fullness in the forearms to provide easy movement. Both wrists should be measured and fit in the exact way you intend on wearing the shirts ie with the Piggy or not. This is pretty much a shirtmaking fundamental, as basic as you can get.

When you go to a bespoke shirtmaker, expect the same process as you would expect from a bespoke tailor. Just because one is moving from bespeaking suit to shirt does not mean the process should change. Have a full basted fitting for your shirt made and from there insist on as many fittings to get the correct fit. When you are satisfied that the fit and all the details are correct, have a shirt made. That is what you do at the tailors and that is what you should do with the shirtmaker.

Think about it for a minute, would a tailor make you a fully sewn suit for a fitting? And then do alterations in order to perfect the pattern? Probably not.

Cheers

[alden]

Is there a bit too much focus on where the shirts are sewn? The tailoring trade has always had its own division of labour with outworkers sent cut pieces of fabric to be sewn and finished, a workshop is in most ways a proto-factory.

As with the tailoring trade, the amount of control the firm has over the make and the quality of the people involved makes a huge difference. Hard to use Six Sigma to discuss bespoke, but of the parameters that affect the quality of the product, control over the make has to be one of the principal ones.

When I think about shirtmaking the example of Charvet's workshops in Argenton-sur-Creuse (a delightful place to visit) that has been under the firms control since the 18th century comes to mind. The same can be said of Hermes and their products, most is made in house and the outworkers occasionally used are of the highest quality. These are traditional firms with great histories. But there are examples of companies who have their products made in workshops they do not own or own only partly, and they do brilliant things as well. Lanvin is an example.
And we have many examples on SR itself as you mention. Though it should be said that there is real pressure on all makers to find, train and keep good craftsmen, because they are an increasingly rare commodity.

Cheers

[NJS]

Part of it is that workers in the west will not train in skilled trades to be paid at sweat rates and most customers will not pay the market worth of hand-stitching:


http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/hood/shirt.html

Having said that, I always found Budd to make what I asked them to make, down to fine detail, in good materials and to make sure that the shirts fitted. I would never dream of paying several hundred pounds for a single shirt but I am sure that there are still makers who will give you an antique service if you will pay for it.
NJS

[Cooked]

I use to get shirts from Russell and Hodge until a few years ago. There is indeed a workshop clearly visible at the back of their shop, with sewing machines, shears, paper patterns all on view, and all looking very pretty and appropriate. The only thing usually missing was anyone actually using said tools. I must have been in there dozens of times (I used to work around the corner, which is how I came to use them (this was long before I ever thought of seeking advice from the internet on such matters)) and I would say on only a third or so of my visits (office hours, weekdays) was anyone sitting in there actually making shirts, and even then it would be one or two people at most. Now I imagine a business like that must need to shift dozens or hundreds of shirts a week in order to keep the wolves from the door - enough to keep a workshop a buzzing hive of industry I would have thought. No doubt this workshop existed somewhere, but it sure wasn't on Windmill St ...

I have now been using Sean O'Flynn for a couple of years and have been happy enough. However I have also been involved in a rather drawn out (not a good sign already...) experiment elsewhere - though still in London - which has involved a muslin test shirt and a number of fittings, and promises more handwork than the London norm. I hope to see the results next week...

[culverwood]

I have not had any problems with cuff diameter (nice and tight) or length and I would not expect to with a bespoke shirt maker. I am a pretty normal shape and perhaps bespoke shirts are just vanity for me but Sean makes what I ask for albeit he takes his time to do so.

I do not micro-manage the process and leave most of the decisions to fit and style to my tailor and shirtmaker once I have told them basically what I want. Shoes are different though I am a bit more involved in the process and much more demanding of the craftsmen and women involved.

[andreyb]

I use to get shirts from Russell and Hodge until a few years ago. There is indeed a workshop clearly visible at the back of their shop, with sewing machines, shears, paper patterns all on view, and all looking very pretty and appropriate. The only thing usually missing was anyone actually using said tools. I must have been in there dozens of times (I used to work around the corner, which is how I came to use them (this was long before I ever thought of seeking advice from the internet on such matters)) and I would say on only a third or so of my visits (office hours, weekdays) was anyone sitting in there actually making shirts, and even then it would be one or two people at most.

This is... quite surprising, I should say.

"Potemkin's village" at the centre of London?

Andrey

[Melcombe]

Also can you clarify the problems you have with the New & Lingwood shirt?

Firstly, Cathach, thank you for your comprehensive post – those links are really very useful indeed.

In response to the point that you made, above, I would like to explain a little further about the situation that caused me to comment on New and Lingwood's quality:

I received a credit voucher from House of Fraser when my wife returned an item that she had bought with my credit card. As department stores go, I think HoF have quite a lot to recommend them and certainly their website is easily navigable. I was surprised to notice that they are selling a range of "New and Lingwood" branded shirts, which quite coincidentally came in at about the value of my voucher, and since of course one can't have too many shirts...

Anyhoo, the shirt arrived promptly and well wrapped and sporting the familiar logo of N & L, albeit in a slightly different colour to that with which I am familiar.

I had some reservations on unwrapping it, but after laundering it, my worst fears were proven. The poor stitching has (along with the linings in the collar and placket) shrunk differentially to the (poor) fabric of the shirt itself. It is a sorry excuse for a garment.

I really was taken aback by the matter and thought I would enquire (obliquely) of N & L whether there might be some particular reason for this unwelcome surprise. I had thought perhaps they had sold out to some other business with less concern over product quality.

I have just received a very helpful and reassuring email from Mr Moloney of N & L explaining that the HoF line of "new and Lingwood" is unrelated to the shirts available in their own shop. He says:

The collection offered by the House of Fraser is made under license and is completely separate from the collection I put together for our Jermyn Street store.

The price points are lower and, consequently, the fabrics used are of a different quality.

It's not for me to speculate on the wisdom of licensing such a reputable shirt maker's name against the production of a parallel product that does the actual maker no credit, but there it is.

The bottom line is, if you were to be shopping in a department store and you see a "N & L" shirt being sold there, the name on the packet is no guarantee of the quality of the contents.

Very odd indeed…

[Rob O]

It is disheartening to see established houses dilute their brand this way, but N&L are but the latest in a long line of offenders. I purchased a RTW Charvet shirt and was aghast at the fit. The material and make were just OK. And this was a £180 shirt. Similar experiences with G&H. So my current focus is on bespoke. I have booked a visit with Mary Frittolini and will report back presently.

[Rowly]

The bottom line is, if you were to be shopping in a department store and you see a "N & L" shirt being sold there, the name on the packet is no guarantee of the quality of the contents

It is always a delight for me to visit N&L in Jermyn Street. I have never bought their shirts, but have bought very nice jackets, which were an extremely good fit and of beautiful cloths and patterns. These are not mass produced. They select and design just a few each season. I don't know who makes for them, but the name, in my opinion, is let down by the inferiority of the mass produced goods found in dept. stores.

[Badden]

I have booked a visit with Mary Frittolini and will report back presently.

Eagerly await your report - her work appears to be quite good.

[Cantabrigian]

so, dear members (not to derail this thread entirely), what's a poor sod stuck in New York (who doesn't wish to pay Kabbaz rates) to do about getting some decently fitting shirts? I was thinking about going with one of the traveling UK outfits, but this thread has rained on that parade at least a little bit.

thanks in advance for any suggestions.

I would definitely stay away from Geneva. They ignored all of my requests, cut a shirt that was skin tight (even though I requested a looser, more comfortable fit) and then proceeded to argue with me when I brought the shirt back to discuss the fit and other problems. They even argued that the collar buttons, which were obviously askew, were placed correctly and that it was my dropped shoulder which made them look askew. When I tried to discuss specific areas that were too tight or restrictive, they again ignored me and just said that they would give me another inch all around. To their credit, they did take the shirt back and send me a new one, but the new shirt still didn't fit as well as some MTM shirts that I have. And the collar buttons were still askew.

CEGO seems to be mostly MTM and, at least in the reviews I've read, people either love them or hate them. I've heard that Ascot Chang's fit is a bit skimpy. A friend of mine who is a runner, told me that his AC shirts seemed a bit tight after an injury forced him to stop running for 2 weeks. I've also read reviews though where people have said that AC produced great fitting shirts, particularly when copying a shirt that already fits well. My understanding is that AC sends your measurements to their factory in Hong Kong, where a pattern is created & the shirt produced. This seems to be a step down from the London shirtmakers, who, at a minimum, create the patterns themselves.

I'm going to try Paris next. If that doesn't work, then it's back to London for me.

I'm genuinely surprised to hear that about Geneva. I found Eugene very easy to deal with. He got almost every order right and the one mistake he made (a pocket on a shirt that shouldn't have had one) was completely corrected.

I'm guessing you like a pretty loose fit so I have no idea how well they do that. I prefer something that looks fitted but that I could play tennis in and they nailed that.

I found Atam at Paris to be annoying to deal with - never had things done when he said they were, etc.

Now that I'm in London, I'm not sure what I'll do. Eugene didn't seem to keen on a long distance relationship and I don't think any London shirtmaker, with the exception of Emma Willis, is worth a try. Since her shirts are 400GBP or something crazy like that I'll probably have a look at the Italians or maybe Ascot Chang though they come here very infrequently.

[Frog in Suit]

and I don't think any London shirtmaker, with the exception of Emma Willis, is worth a try.

I may be butting in uninvited but this seems rather a blanket statement. Any supporting evidence?
Frog in Suit