An Italian Bespoke Wedding

[rathatha]

Hello Hector

I went to Camiceria Soldati upon the recommendation of Caraceni in Rome. So, they do come with respectable recommendation. Surely because the tailoring lady has worked with Carlo for some years. Carlo did seem to like my finished shirt.

However I wasnt entirely happy with them due to the fact that the tailor/cutter was not always present. I am not sure how important it is for you, but for me interaction with the cutter is a valuable part of the bespoke experience. When my measurements were first taken, the cutter wasnt present. At my first fitting with muslin she was there. I did a second fitting with an apprentice whose work had all to be rechecked by the main tailor. And the third time I got my shirts consigned to me without even a trial.

The choice of fabric was good, but not as extensive as I have imagined. And they always push you towards SICTESS for some reason. In any case, the comment about maintainability probably comes from my own inability. The textile used is extremely fine and comfortable but very easily crumpled and takes someone who is very good at ironing to make it wearable after each use. So, I realize that until I get better at taking care of fine clothes I should choose a fabric that is more 'maintainable'.

Somehow, I find the whole experience very commercial and unenthusiastic. Or I probably expected a lot more.I am currently getting a shirt made by Maria Frittolini and the experience is a lot more friendly and welcoming.

[rathatha]

Sorry, I cannot open the pictures.

I am not sure why, but to open the pictures I have to right click and open in a new window/tab and seems to open.

[davidhuh]

Somehow, I find the whole experience very commercial and unenthusiastic. Or I probably expected a lot more.I am currently getting a shirt made by Maria Frittolini and the experience is a lot more friendly and welcoming.

Dear Rathatha,

thank you for sharing pictures, congratulations for your lovely bride and the nice suit!
Your experience with M. Frittolini says it all. Pushing customers for specific cloth is unprofessional.

cheers, david

[rathatha]

Somehow, I find the whole experience very commercial and unenthusiastic. Or I probably expected a lot more.I am currently getting a shirt made by Maria Frittolini and the experience is a lot more friendly and welcoming.

Dear Rathatha,

thank you for sharing pictures, congratulations for your lovely bride and the nice suit!
Your experience with M. Frittolini says it all. Pushing customers for specific cloth is unprofessional.

cheers, david

Thanks for your kind words davidhuh.
I would really appreciate if you have any suggestions for my next commission. Do the pictures represent the suit accurately?
Also, I am still not able to make up my mind on the seven fold ties. I saw there is another thread where a similar discussion is going on. Cappelli, as suggested by you, was fantastic. I will get my next ties from him surely, but just not sure if it will be/should be a seven fold.

[davidhuh]

Dear Rathatha,

I like your suit a lot, especially the shoulder is phantastic
I would now wear it in properly in the coming 2, 3 months. You may find small adjustments to make after that, and it may help your tailor to adjust the pattern a little.

Regarding your next commission: As blue is quite popular in Italy, you could go for a DB perhaps? Or a nice grey fumo di Londra? The cloth club is issuing 2 different greys in the Mistral quality (hopsack). This is a phantastic and versatile cloth. But I don't know what your needs are... Perhaps have a chat with your tailor, too?

The seven folded discussion - hm, I saw it and wanted to keep my mouth shut . I have discussed this twice with tie makers; once at Charvet, once with an Italian one. Both recommended not to do it. Has Cappelli a store in Rome, or is there someone selling his 7-fold? Try them out, they have to work for you, your shirt and the knot you like to tie. If you cannot find the Cappelli in a store, go to Rubinacci.

cheers, david

[rathatha]

Thanks a lot davidhuh for the suggestions. I have been wearing the suit every week or so, but not sure what wearing in means. Does the cloth shrink? I have not gotten in washed since I am not certain where to send it to be laundered/ironed. Once I do wear it in, you suggest I take it back to Caraceni to make adjustments? What sort of adjustments are normally done? Sorry if I have too many questions.

Choice of colors for next commision: I have been thinking of a blue, but now will take a look at fumo di londra too. I am not totally certain how the cloth club issue works. I have once mailed Alden for one of the flannels and did not get a reply. So, not sure if I have the privileges to buy the cloth. DB: I feel that I am not yet ready for a DB. It always feels a bit older for me.

Seven fold ties: Cappelli has no store in Rome, but I have a full seven fold from him anyway and I just find it very difficult to knot and is not exactly my cup of tea. I have decided to stay away from them. I will try next an Italian seven fold as they call it, which is 6 folds and lining. Shall let you know if I feel it is better

Thanks a lot once again for your patience and for all your suggestions

[couch]

Rathatha,

Felicitations on your marriage, and on a handsome suit that indeed sets off your lovely bride's dress very effectively. I agree with David that this is a fine first suit, and with some wear its maker will be able to see what adjustments, if any, need to be made. I would observe only a couple of points. First, Sig. Caraceni has complied with your wish and given you a shorter jacket--very slightly shorter than I would have chosen given your relatively long legs and the width of your hips, as well as I can judge in the photos. The other point, and again this may be deceptive in the photos, is that the trousers seem to not quite want to hang with what Michael refers to as "line," but rather have draping fullness, especially to the inside of the creases. Hard to tell if this is because they are cut just a bit long and rest too much on the shoes, or whether they have slipped down during wearing, or whether the cloth is simply thin enough that after a very full day it has lost some body, or whether the the shaping in the thighs is slightly off. I'm inclined to think either the cut is a bit long or they have slipped down, since there is more than a little break in front and some apparent break in back. The turnups should provide enough weight to pull the creases taut and smooth out some of the ripples. Were you wearing a belt, DAKS tops, or braces?

Given that you do not have a narrow face, I might also consider a slightly narrower tie knot--a half windsor rather than a full one, especially with the longer points of your collar.

Bearing in mind that photographs can be deceptive and some of what I'm seeing may not actually describe reality, even these few suggestions are subtleties that do not change the fact that yours is a very successful suit.

(It's also possible that if the trousers sat with less break and more line, the jacket length would suddenly seem perfect, since these perceived proportions are relative.)

[Concordia]

I can't open the pix but it sounds as though you did well.

For some reason I've always expected a slightly different experience with shirts than suits. It seems that once the pattern is right, there doesn't have to be as much fiddling about. So while I've had some pleasure with the London makers to go with the occasional disappointment, my current roster takes in Ascot Chang, Charvet demi-mesure, and Napoli Su Misura, none of which have introduced me to the cutter or allowed me to see the making. Not a bad system in a way-- you see fabrics in a hotel room, or ask for swatches to be sent by mail. An exchange of e-mails follows, and -- presto!

I think that to get more involved in a repeat order for a half-dozen shirts is to admit that disaster is just around the corner.

[davidhuh]

Dear Rathatha,

please see below.

Thanks a lot davidhuh for the suggestions. I have been wearing the suit every week or so, but not sure what wearing in means.

Wearing in means what you are doing already. Wear it often, once or twice a week. Over time, the well tailored suit will become your second skin. Once you have worn it a dozen times or so, you may go and see your tailor and check if you want to do some adjustments.

Does the cloth shrink?

No. Over some wearings, the suit and the canvas take your body form.

I have not gotten in washed since I am not certain where to send it to be laundered/ironed.

If a good ironing is needed, go to your tailor. In London, a tailor would offer steam-and-press to his clients. I'm sure Caraceni does the same. Also, find a good dry cleaner who is ironing by hand and who will not press your coat mechanically. If in doubt, ask for a recommendation at Caraceni. I brush my suits regularly and generally use dry cleaning once per year before storing suits away for the next season. If you dry clean more often, or use a bad provider, your suit will be affected.

Once I do wear it in, you suggest I take it back to Caraceni to make adjustments? What sort of adjustments are normally done? Sorry if I have too many questions.

The more a cloth has character, the less predictable it is. Adjustments are typically required more often when you are a new client to your tailor - until he has made 3, 4 suits for you. He will stabilise your pattern and get a better understanding of you and the way you wear your suits.

Sometimes, I need to correct the length of a sleeve. Or I want to accentuate the waist a little more. Or I need a little bit more room and move the closing button. Or a sleeve does not fall nicely when I stand straight in my natural pose. Or I need more room in my trousers. If you're not sure, go to your tailor after a while - he will spot a few things he will want to change.

Choice of colors for next commision: I have been thinking of a blue, but now will take a look at fumo di londra too. I am not totally certain how the cloth club issue works. I have once mailed Alden for one of the flannels and did not get a reply. So, not sure if I have the privileges to buy the cloth.

The cloth club is described here: http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =2&t=10101
The grey mistrals are ongoing subscriptions, you might be able to jump on the wagon still (contact Michael Alden). If he doesn't reply, don't give up. He must sometimes sink in e-mails from everybody here

DB: I feel that I am not yet ready for a DB. It always feels a bit older for me.

It is good to listen to yourself. However, the DB has become quite fashionable again, and rightly so. It can be cut in a relaxed style and does not need to be stiff at all. I had the Agnelli flannel and the grey chalk stripe Brisa made up Kent style - the result is nothing but spectacular. Strangers talk to me and want to know the brand

Seven fold ties: Cappelli has no store in Rome, but I have a full seven fold from him anyway and I just find it very difficult to knot and is not exactly my cup of tea. I have decided to stay away from them. I will try next an Italian seven fold as they call it, which is 6 folds and lining. Shall let you know if I feel it is better

You may have read Michael Alden's comment already, but in case: http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... 844#p65800. I think he is very right, although I have ordered via internet from makers I know. When I touch a tie, I normally know if it is for me or not. If in doubt, I tie a knot.

cheers, david

[rathatha]

Sig. Caraceni has complied with your wish and given you a shorter jacket--very slightly shorter than I would have chosen given your relatively long legs and the width of your hips, as well as I can judge in the photos. The other point, and again this may be deceptive in the photos, is that the trousers seem to not quite want to hang with what Michael refers to as "line," but rather have draping fullness, especially to the inside of the creases. Hard to tell if this is because they are cut just a bit long and rest too much on the shoes, or whether they have slipped down during wearing, or whether the cloth is simply thin enough that after a very full day it has lost some body, or whether the the shaping in the thighs is slightly off. I'm inclined to think either the cut is a bit long or they have slipped down, since there is more than a little break in front and some apparent break in back. The turnups should provide enough weight to pull the creases taut and smooth out some of the ripples. Were you wearing a belt, DAKS tops, or braces?
(It's also possible that if the trousers sat with less break and more line, the jacket length would suddenly seem perfect, since these perceived proportions are relative.)

Thanks couch for a detailed explanation. Really appreciate it. I was wearing a belt but I believe that they have slipped down during wearing. The tailor did insist on wearing the trousers over my waist, but I have naturally drifted towards wearing them lower. If any adjustment will need to be made, this will be it. I also did feel that the shaping in the thighs is slightly off. I am amazed at how much you can see from a not so clear photograph. Truly appreciate the time spent in explaining.

[rathatha]

I can't open the pix but it sounds as though you did well.

For some reason I've always expected a slightly different experience with shirts than suits. It seems that once the pattern is right, there doesn't have to be as much fiddling about. So while I've had some pleasure with the London makers to go with the occasional disappointment, my current roster takes in Ascot Chang, Charvet demi-mesure, and Napoli Su Misura, none of which have introduced me to the cutter or allowed me to see the making. Not a bad system in a way-- you see fabrics in a hotel room, or ask for swatches to be sent by mail. An exchange of e-mails follows, and -- presto!

I think that to get more involved in a repeat order for a half-dozen shirts is to admit that disaster is just around the corner.

Thanks for the comments Concordia. I agree with you that not much involvment should be there for a repeat order, but to get the pattern right as you say, even a shirtmaker ideally should spend a little time with the customer in the fitting stages.

[rathatha]

Dear Davidhuh

Really appreciate the detailed comments. I am going to wait a little bit and then take the suit back to Caraceni for adjustments and pressing and other suggestions.

I also managed to get into the gray mistral subscription and also trying to get the flannels. It is time for me to now choose what to do with these cloths. May be I will get a DB made

From your comments above, it seems to me that I should stick to Caraceni for the next few suits. I was actually contemplating on going to Naples to try out a new tailor ( and hopefully a bit cheaper), but if you suggest that one should stick to his tailor since it takes a few attempts to get the pattern exactly right, I am not so sure on what I should do next anymore.

Regards

[davidhuh]

Dear Rathatha,

I also managed to get into the gray mistral subscription and also trying to get the flannels. It is time for me to now choose what to do with these cloths. May be I will get a DB made

Excellent - I'm sure you will like the mistral. I recently heard Mr Mariano Rubinacci telling a funny story about a client asking for a hopsack many years ago, and he didn't know the cloth. It has since become one of his best sellers apparently. The flannels are easy: get in touch with Fox Flannels and get their LL swatches sent to you. You will then endure the pain of taking a decision

From your comments above, it seems to me that I should stick to Caraceni for the next few suits. I was actually contemplating on going to Naples to try out a new tailor ( and hopefully a bit cheaper), but if you suggest that one should stick to his tailor since it takes a few attempts to get the pattern exactly right, I am not so sure on what I should do next anymore.

I understand your thoughts - Caraceni is not cheap. However, so often I hear people complaining about tailors and when I inquire, many of them would reveal having one suit made here, the next there, the third anywhere else. I am convinced that this is the safe way to disaster.

I started working with my tailor 3 years ago, and his suits are getting better and better - I got 4th and 5th roughly two months ago (and his first one was excellent, pictures here http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =4&t=10691)

There are two ways of saving a little bit of money, if that is the issue:
1) Have the trousers made by a trouser maker who works for less. The art of the tailor is mostly in the coat; trousers are easier to make.
2) Add a second tailor once you have a really established relationship with Caraceni - I would say 4, 5 suits made. By then, you are more experienced as a bespeaker, and less likely to become a victim of somebody who is not very serious. You could then work with both.

Anyway, this second tailor may be a less known name in Rome, and you would not need to travel to Napoli. An easy way to figure out is to have one making you some odd trousers. It makes things a lot easier for you if your tailor is around the corner. There are so many details, quick fixes done in half an hour which you cannot do with a tailor from another city.

cheers, david

[rathatha]

Davidhuh

As always, your comments are very very helpful.

I must also admit that I have seen your Mahon suit pictures before I even started with Caraceni and was very impressed.

I got a english gray herringbone flannel from Fox and asked them for the swatch. My wardrobe is probably going to fill up with grays in all sorts of textures

For the tailor discussion, I have decided I will stick with Caraceni. And a second tailor will be Sicilian under the watchful eye of Mr.Alden, when I manage to take a sartorial vacation soon