Where lies the Sweet Spot in various cloths ?

[Rowly]

I have often been advised that one should wear the heaviest suiting manageable for your circumstances, and that to achieve a good look the cut is everything and weight trumps Supers , to maximise drape. Good advice and I have always taken it.

However, I was wondering at what point, the hand becomes too unrefined and where is the point of balance between hand and drape ( assuming longevity is not too much of a consideration)?
Would Super 100's--around 11oz hit the spot?-- Smiths' Blue Riband ( no cashmere, so drier )?
---------------------------------------------------------Premier Cru ( a little cashmere)?
Or , if wearable, should we aim for 13oz Lesser and Botany and other comparable cloths?
I find the Steadfast and 16oz Lesser to be a fine solid cloth, but is the drape at the expense of finesse....and is the trade-off worth it?
Where is the Sweet Spot?........All experiences welcome...thanks...?

[Concordia]

Who's cutting, who's wearing, and in what climate?

[lgcintra]

Some-one must summon Old Master Henry.... he is the chap for this enquiry.

[cathach]

I have often been advised that one should wear the heaviest suiting manageable for your circumstances, and that to achieve a good look the cut is everything and weight trumps Supers , to maximise drape. Good advice and I have always taken it.

It really must depend on the wearers internal thermometer and the environment. I think that in Northern Europe, especially in Ireland and Great Britain the background humidity and damp is so high that a 14oz in a worsted or wool/mohair mix is a minimum, this has been confirmed by the tailors of my acquaintance. In a woolen-spun fabric it might need to be heavier to maintain shape/drape.

Personally I prefer 425g+ (14oz-ish) in a worsted and 545g+ (19oz-ish) in tweed. As mohair/wool mixes maintain their shape better anything from 360g+ (11oz-ish) suits me.

However the point raised about the handle and finish of certain heavier weight fabrics is spot on, it can be hard to find that well-finished handle at times, especially in a pattern or colour you want. There is a danger in always assuming that heavier is better.

Some heavier fabrics as well are Super 100s, so would have a softer and more luxurious handle. Lumb's Golden Bale is a Super 100s I believe. Some heavier tweeds have very different characteristics as well, despite being similar weights.

[Rowly]

Of course in certain circumstances, a less refined finish may be desirable. The Universal book has a few Pow's which almost resemble a fine tweed, which suits them.

For a refined worsted, with a good hand ( let's assume we remove climate and internal temp.gauge from the equation, so that in theory we can wear anything)-- then where does refinement drop off, as weight increases?

This can also apply to Tweeds, as some are more refined and some more rustic, at any given weight, and of course, the quality of the raw materials and weaving has a lot to do with it.

Taking all these things into account, it would be nice to find the maximum weight to refinement ratio for various cloths ( assuming a perfect world where heat is not an issue)?

[Russell]

Rowley,
You mentioned tweeds - I think that where some tweeds are concerned the type of weave plays a part & lighter weights can appear to be less 'refined' than heavier more tightly woven versions. As an example, I've got samples from a Harris tweed weaver who produces a good dense herringbone cloth (dense by modern Harris standards anyway), it makes up & wears well - but his (or anyones) lighter plain weave Harris cloth is to me more like a hessian potato sack, lacking any refinement by comparison. Given identical types of wool the heavier/denser cloth has a nicer (more refined) hand to it.

I'd suggest in general terms the same can apply to other types of traditional tweed - i.e. lighter/looser woven cloth often giving a less refined look & feel. Another example would be the LL blue Donegal & the LL corn herringbone; the latter is lighter & looser in weave than the former thus giving a more rustic slant - one which is just right for the cloth actually with its late summer countryside appearance.

So I feel that the effect of weigh on 'refinement' can work in the opposite direction with traditional tweeds (compared to worsteds) but there's a place for most points on the scale in the wardrobe. Add to that the effect of different wools on the 'hand' - well it makes it very difficult to define exactly what the term 'refined' is for a tweed & perhaps 'desirable/practical' (for the job in hand) is more important consideration.

Regards
Russell 

[Rowly]

Thanks Russell. Your points are very well made and I totally agree. I did mention that a less refined finish can be desirable. My main focus was on suiting. It could well be that there are too many variables in the potential aesthetics of tweed....unless, perhaps, we only consider more high twist Rus in Urbe type ones.

[Simon A]

Refinement is a tough thing to quantify, as opposed to grammes/m2 for cloth. Do you mean softness of hand? I don't think that it could be said that there is an inverse linear relationship between "refinement" and cloth weight. A well-finished woollen flannel has a very refined hand in the minds of some and yet may be double the weight of a hard-finished shiny 250 gramme worsted. While technically the lightweight worsted is "refined" due to fine fibre diameter, tight weave and extensive finishing, some more conservative consumers might see it as "unrefined" in a qualitative sense.

The sensation of touching and wearing wool depends on many factors, such as:

(a) Average fibre diameter of the wool used
(b) Variation in fibre diameter of wool used, crimp, and presence of any coarse fibres (>30 micron).
(c) Presence of non-wool fibres like mohair or cashmere (which are microscopically very different to wool and so perform differently)
(c) Diameter, ply and twist characteristics of the thread made.
(d) Weaving pattern and technology used e.g. 2 x 2, herringbone, twill, woollen etc. High-speed looms or other.
(e) Finishing techniques.
(f) Weight of finished fabric in g/m2.

All of these have some effect on softness of hand, prickle, durability, resistance to creasing, insulation, ventilation, ability to be shaped, sheen or matte characteristics, and other features. Some of these attributes touch on "refinement" as you suggest.

The recommendation to buy fabric as heavy as you can endure is a good starting point. Fabric is quite an individual product, for the reasons mentioned above, and so weight alone is only part of the picture. Best to unroll a couple of metres at your tailors to really get your hands around it, and ask his opinion.

[Rowly]

Thanks for a very detailed and well formed response. I suppose it is totally subjective and can't be considered from a scientific viewpoint. One man might get great pleasure from the solid feel of a well cut heavy cloth.( as I do ), ...another might care little about the cut and prefer a soft hand at the expense of drape. Perhaps a better question would be to ask those in one or other camp what influences their decisions ( again assuming that temperature and longevity are not part of the equation), purely based on what they look for in the look and feel of the final garment?