EG vs Cleverley RTW vs Vass wholecut

[Guest]

Gentlemen,

I would like a beautiful black wholecut. I had to toss my AS wholecut because its last was so ungainly I no longer felt comfortable wearing it. A long time ago someone asked about the Weymouth versus the AS wholecut. I recently saw the Weymouth and trust me, the CJ is way nicer in shape.

Now, I would like to get a wholecut and I can choose between the EG, the Cleverley, or the Vass. Can anyone compare and contrast these different takes on the classic design?

Also, I wrote both Kempson and Cleverly in London for info about prices and I have yet to receive a response. What gives?

[Mark Seitelman]

Go with Green, and then with Cleverly.

I feel that these two English makers would make the best English type shoe.

I cannot picture a Vass wholecut. Vass is an excellent shoe, but I would recommend an English company doing the English look over an Hungarian company imitating the look. It's like Green making a Budapest shoe.

[bry2000]

Have patience. They will respond to your emails.

THe EG Newbury is tops. Cleverly makes a beautiful rendition. I would pass on Vass, which I think are overrated shoes. Still waiting for my refunded deposit from the Vass East Coast rep for shoes that did not work out. Not happy with my sole Vass experience.

[jcusey]

Go with Green, and then with Cleverly.

Here's the Cleverley RTW shoe:



This looks very much like the C&J Weymouth:



In fact, I'd be willing to wager that they're actually the same shoe (or, at least, that C&J makes both).

In any event, I'd choose the EG Newbury over either the C&J or the Cleverley shoe both because the quality of the make is higher and because EG actually encourages special orders and has a very flexible special order program.

I cannot picture a Vass wholecut. Vass is an excellent shoe, but I would recommend an English company doing the English look over an Hungarian company imitating the look. It's like Green making a Budapest shoe.

I have seen a Vass wholecut on the P2 last, and I didn't think that it worked very well. It would be more successful on the U last or on the new Japanese last, although the result would look more like an Italian rendition of an English shoe than an English shoe. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you're trying for an English-looking shoe, it wouldn't be your best option.

[jcusey]

Also, I wrote both Kempson and Cleverly in London for info about prices and I have yet to receive a response. What gives?

Although I have usually had a relatively speedy response to e-mails from Cleverley (where relatively speedy is defined as two or three days rather than two or three hours), their approach to e-mail may be somewhat more lackadaisical than you would find in the United States. The most reliable and immediate method of communication is the telephone.

[BenedictSpinola]

I have wholecuts from C&J, Grenson, Tim Little, Vass, EG & JL (the latter two are really half-cuts - they have swan neck seams). Anyway, the elegance of a wholecut is completely dependent upon the shape of the last – so what you’ve asked us to do is to compare lasts (I don’t know which Vass and EG lasts you had envisaged using). To my mind, wholecuts work best on a last with a chisel toe. Certainly my Vass wholecuts on the U last are striking shoes - the shape is Cleverly via Italy. (I have a couple of photos of these shoes in my folder in the photojournal.) The Cleverly RTW wholecuts I've seen have been remarkably similar in shape and construction to the Weymouth. A nice shoe, but not nearly as handsome as my Vass or EG shoes. Edward Green make perhaps the nicest RTW lasts available and I think that the 888 works very well as a wholecut.

[Guest]

That is hilarious! I had discussed the wholecut on the U-last with Eva Vass but she is very reluctant to make such a shoe for me without my having tried on a shoe made on that last. I ordered a RTW Budapester on the Budapest last from Schumann in Vienna and they fit me like slippers, really comfortable. I am just an easy fit in general. So she pushes me to the P2 last, which has given her fewer problems. The other oxford I posted about with the brown medalion on black is in production, and she advised me to wait to see how the P2 fits me.

I find very amusing that you already thought of this and have a wholecut on the u-last, of course saving me a lot of trouble!

I saw the Weymouth and while it is a very nice shoe, it is not entirely to my taste. A little side note: by far the LEAST pretentious and warmest place I visited in my whirlwind shopping tour was T&A to see the CJ's, and mind you I showed up five minutes before they were to close so I could not have been a welcome sight. I am not saying I was burdened by attitude, I just mean that I can see why someone could drop a lot of money at T&A with enthusiasm, with that kind of service and warmth, which mean a lot to me.

By the way, I know people have probably mentioned this before, but do they do true custom at T&A or only MTM?

[Mark Seitelman]

T & A does true custom or bespoke as well as MTM. Its MTM is a bit of a mix and match (e.g., standard 17 body with a standard 15 collar, etc.)

[BenedictSpinola]

David,

My wholecuts are "bespoke" - so it wasn't too much of a risk on Eva's part.

[dopey]

David:
I have a pair of Vass plain-toe with medallion on the P2 last. I chose the last entirely for fit. As a result I can offer you two bits of advice that I hope are useful.

First, the Vass lasts are different from each other in fit - more different, I believe, than amongst the lines of different makers. I tried multiple sizes in multiple lasts and found only one combination that worked. I am harder to fit than most, because of orthotics, but that should caution you about changing lasts will nilly and assuming you will be OK.

Second. I do not believe the P2 last will be great for a wholecut if you are looking for classic English elegance. I think the P2 is quite handsome but it is more solid than light. Ideal for a serious, rather than elegant, cap toe in my mind, but not a whole cut.

I have a pair of medallion whole cuts Stuart’s Choice (Grenson Masterpiece) that I think are very beautiful in shape. You can call Paul Stuart and ask if they still carry them. I find them as beautiful in shape as my EG’s on the 888 and nicer than EG’s on 89, but that is just personal preference. Quality-wise, they are a [tiny] step down from EG and a [bigger] step-down from Vass, but still very high quality. At that level, you can feel satisfied that you are getting good shoes whichever make you buy and instead look for the maker that offers the last and fit that work for you.

[tattersall007]

David, there is enough of a difference in the u-last that you may require a different size than you wear on the budapest. I wear a half-size larger on the u-last as it is narrower and as you're considering an oxford you'll want to be particular in the fit of the width as it is less forgiving than a derby. To your original question - I own the Weymouth and while I enjoy wearing it, if I had to do it over again I'd select the EG Newbury as others have counselled above. I find the 888 nicer than C&J's 337 and enjoy experimenting with the different shades of brown that EG offers.

[Guest]

Okay gentlemen, spoke with Suzie Jones (susie@edwardgreen.com 44-160-462-6880). I can buy the Newbury on the 606 last RTW for $723 delivered, or special order it on any last I want for $833 delivered and a three-month wait. What sayeth the Lounge?

[Concordia]

Which last fits your foot?

[TVD]

Chose the most elegant last available rather than the stock item. That will also provide a contrats to your Vass shoes and add versatility to your shoe collection.

The importance of absolute comfort when buying shoes can be overestimated. Some shoes are meant to be elegant. I do not mean to chose a badly fitting shoe, but certain lasts are less comfortable than others. That is not a bad thing.

[bry2000]

Jeez, do yo really want to hear endless complaints on this board about how uncomfortable an elegantly lasted shoe is.